Atheists The New Theists ?

This is a double edged sword. There are times that I feel, due to my beliefs of my life beyond this death; that time here is meaningless (or at least much less meaningful).

However, to take a quote from Soulfly and use my interpretation of it: "Life here is just a time trial, getting ready for the final."
I use that to remember, that what I do here is meaningful. According to my belief, God put me here because He cared enough to give us an opportunity to live as Him. We have the choice to make to believe and live for Him, or not. We get our chance at being God in our lives. Every decision I make here, then, is quite important as it is pivotal to the fate of my existence.

After this life has ended, and my eternal one begins, there aren't really choices to make, so while be eternal and powerful; it is actually less critical as the things that can alter those outcomes have already passed.

On a semi-related note: I really hope we get to physically participate in the Good vs. Evil War. I'd loved to wield a sword+shield (double axes, something) and go hacking/slashing at demons and the hounds of hell. Especially knowing that a)we are destined to win b)I have infinite lives and invincibility turned on ; )

Decline of Evangelicalism in the US

Daemun, why is it right to hack and slash at these evil hounds and demons?

Why would there even be a fight (war) between the forces of Good and Evil when Good clearly stated that he created/is both?

Polls about what evangelicals are saying about the US gives me the whole he-said she said vibe.
51 percent say they think it's gotten worst in the last 5 years and will get worse in the next 5 years...i don't really know how that poll is of much use.
still interesting though.

True. I'm kind of swaying in and out of this conversation at the moment. This week has proven to be a ***-storm. I'm not fully invested in this the way I was last week.

I just thought that was an interesting little tid-bit. Obviously biased, of course.

If God exists, he's a sadistic ***, love that quote though.

I dunno how anyone can keep up with it. I was finding it kind of interesting, but then it exploded another 10 pages or something while I was asleep. The few posts I did read had just gotten so heated too. People get so worked up about this ***lol.

Also, lol at the ads in this thread, Evolvefish.com

Huh? What religion are we talking about? <.<

It's not like Epicurus' reasoning is beyond reproach here, though...

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19263/a-question-for-the-religious/#1161571

...(so lazy I just point to another religious thread LOL) but his premise of "if not willing then = malevolent" is based on rejection of the (faith-based) notion that all will be right in the end (and that any evils visited are therefore temporal and ephemeral in nature.) Obviously, those with faith would then view evils and sorrows that are "allowed" by an omnipotent being as not being indicative of an inherently malevolent being. Of course, those without faith would just be inclined to agree with Epicurus. :p

Early versions of Judaism and Hittite cultures view Satan as an emissary that worked for god, to test people.

In essence, all evil is the work of god, as a form of test.

In reality (well, in fictional reality lol), an omnipotent god could not great a being that would then turn on them, without him knowing. So god created all evil.

It's just man's cop-out to say everything good is God and everything bad is Man.

"It's not god that makes us suffer, it's us". Best sheep response -ever-.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Couple that with all of the OT destruction/wrath and it's pretty easy to see that if the Bible is trying to convey anything at all it's the fact that God is good and evil.

Ive read the apologists interpretation of Isaiah 45 but no matter how some acts are twisted into being the fault of man, stuff like the Flood show that God can be just as evil as he can be good within his own text.

I will continue my participation when I can tell wtf is going on.

It seems as though the stylesheets have been murdered.

Self defense...

According to my reading, there is only one outcome. It's like the Alamo, with evil being the Texans... The outcome is inevitable, but they feel the need to take as many down with them as they can.

Evil is the absence of God, just as darkness is the absence of light, and cold the absence of heat. Therefore, it's not like God went "Hmm let's make life hard for my most divine creations" Some chose (as we were given free will) to turn away, hence, the inception of evil, to fill the void of his (once) presence.

And if anyone were to state this outside of this kind of debate, I'd be well pissed. The assumption that anyone that doesn't follow god is inherently evil is ludicrous. I'm not going to bother going into why, it's just pants on head HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.

I never stated that anyone not following God is inherently evil...

Everyone is inherently selfish. This is a cause to move towards things that aren't Godly (putting others first, not some of the BS you've been told by 'religious' people that don't get it) and do things that put oneself first. This is the creation of evil. Doing things that harm others, or harm yourself; strictly for self gain. If everything everyone did was for the unconditional love and betterment of others, there would be no evil.

I see where you were headed, and I know it's came from quite a few (probably the vast majority) of 'Christians' you have spoken with/heard from/read about in the past. I do not share identical beliefs with these people as they are too concerned with tradition and less concerned with intention.

Well I'll be honest, not only have I never read the bible (we were given free bibles in school once, most of us used them as an endless supply of paper plane material), and my Auntie is a crazy religious type (she's some weird branch of "true Christian", doesn't celebrate Christmas because "true Christians" know that Jesus was actually born at some other time) who will happily tell anyone that isn't of her specific religion that they're going to hell.

I love her to death, and she's a smart cookie, but she's made some seriously *** up life choices based on her religion (or perhaps using her religion as an excuse), which may well have coloured my judgement. One of her most famous quotes amongst our family is "If god wanted me to be skinny I'd be skinny." She got a lat-band and then had KFC the night she got home...

Man, way off topic, I'm gonna try and actually finish this assignment now <_<

Ha.
No offense to your grandmother but it is people like her that blaspheme what a 'true Christian' is. I agree, Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25. Agrarian calendar didn't even exist then. That is the day it's celebrated though, so I celebrate it. Kind of like 4th of July. I had nothing to do with our freedom, and it's just another day to me; but it's when the US celebrates so I join in. On Christmas, I try (sometimes futily) to remember that the day is to celebrate my Savior and not eat a bunch and get presents.

I am a firm believer that you don't have to be a certain denomination to 'make it to heaven'. I know quite a few Church of Christ that believe this and it goes against parts of the Bible. It says, anyone that accepts Jesus as a Savior is in, not anyone that baptizes people a certain way and meets the right day of the week. It says anyone, 'Christians' should get this part through their thick skull. We are trying to bring everyone to the after party, not rub it in their faces that they can't get in. It goes against the teachings, in that really thick book, that people never read, but misuse quotes out of all the time.

I also believe that God helps people who help themselves. He has a heart for anyone, but He doesn't want to be tested. If you want to be skinny/get a job/be a millionaire, you do things that work towards that goal. Religion isn't a magical genie in a lamp ready to cater to your every whim. It is a burden/joy to utilize to help others. Positive things happening in your own life is a side effect. Dave Ramsey (a money person, and also a Christian) has a good idea to follow here. He says, in his program, "if you want to be a millionaire, do things that millionaires do". 1) it works great for the subject he spoke of 2) why not apply this to every aspect of life?

If you want to be skinny, eat healthy and work out (what most skinny people do, go figure). If you want to be rich, live within your means, and utilize the stock market for asset growth. If you want to get a job, fill out applications and network. If you want to have kids, well hold hands ; )

True Christian huh?

Evil is just the absence of God huh?

Sure is No True Scottsman in here.

Hmmm... What do you say, as an atheist, to the individual that has known nothing but suffering? Victims of abuse or neglect, or just people that have never known any sort of satisfaction in their lives?

I always hear that if there was a God, he must be really nasty to let these things happen. What do you all say about this if there is no God at all? If you had a chance to speak to people that starved to death, were schizophrenic, victims of crime etc., how would you explain to them their lot in life? This is a once and done thing, they don't get to come back in a nicer life like yours and the journey towards cures/world peace/end to hunger will never benefit them in their lifetime.

Are they just filling a niche in a biological system, survival of the fittest? Maybe I've overlooked this somewhere in these posts, but what is the description for events or activities that a theist might consider evil? Do you consider the rest of humanity your equals including the impaired?

Thanks for interesting responses on last one (:

I belive equality is dictated by communication and empathy, our relationships are established on that point, and 6 billion people on a planet is an extrapolation of such things. Miscommunication and lack of understand are what cause conflict.
Our souciety is and has been at a point where we have had a miscommunication on essentially what one would call death, and as our society grows and we further improve our ability to communicate and understand the thoughts of one another I would expect a great change in teh way we see things. I'm not saying this presumptuously to say that everyone will become atheist....but it's at a "the more you know!" scale of things.
For example, Egypt and the several other "revolutions" so to speak(I don't care to argue if they are revolutions or not but for the poitn of understanding this was the term I used) in the middle east that were assisted by the sheer amount of technology we have available for their thoughts and ideas to be heard.

I don't really know the impact it will have in the future or if it will end up being either a 1984 or a Brave New World(though a brave new world is pretty applicable in things today anyway at a cursory glance),but I'd imagine communication would have still have the ability to change wildly in the decades to come, just beacuse it already has so much in the last 100 years and beyond.

So instead of giving it to this person straight, you rather cloud them in a delusion that they'll have it better in the next world? A next world even the most fervent believer cannot prove exists?

Comforting but wholly detached from reality.

Your statement was the popular strategy of the nobles/clergymen a few centuries back in Europe where people were made to live out pathetic existences on the faith that God would take care of them in the next life.

Want to know how the cycle was broken? When individuals (closet atheists and theists alike) realized that the only way to help people was to quit waiting on a God and attempt to solve the problems through human means. For that, Europe is a much better place than it was a few centuries back.

If you're wealthy, help bring the poor up to your level through educational grants or monetary support.
If all you can do is write, then write about the issues plaguing a people.
If you can only provide manual labor, invest some time and help build something for someone beneath your quality of life.

God or no God, many people are living in squalor and ignorance around the world. The only way to help these people is to do what you can in this world. Though it may not help the generation you start with, many individuals (even the most uneducated) can rest assured and understand that their future generations will have a better life than they had through better education, opportunity and development.

I asked about satisfaction levels as I've been told thus far that an atheist judges their own life on how much delight they can obtain.
For the sake of this discussion I discarded any "Sky Wizard" or "Fairyland" because I really wanted to hear how you relate to these other people on your own terms. In what way do you value them? Is it that looking at their plight makes you imagine it could be you in that state and thus creates a psychological distress you would like to avoid. Is it because if they were given education and food perhaps they may grow up to create some invention that makes your life better? Why do you value them?

I was taught in university that the Earth's capacity for human population was around the 2 billion mark. Anything above that is not sustainable in terms of pollution and depletion of resources. I grant these numbers could change with technological advances and colonization of planetoids could increase the overall total limit. Knowing this, would you be ok euthanizing the 4 billion or so unhappiest folks? We could take volunteers first, then apply a happiness index to the rest. The remaining 1.5 to 2 billion could have a nice little utopia w/ no wars, hunger, unified scientific research, end to religion. Would you go for this? I would be rounded up though as I have been unemployed in the past two years and have proven a drain on society albeit temporarily. I am fairly intelligent but I carry damaged genes also which if I were to procreate may produce a less than desirable offspring. Could make it like Gattaca? Futurama had suicide booths.

ok, remember no sky wizard or fairlyland. What's the plan to keep us from going extinct and why are you trying to comfort the less fortunate through material means anyhow? Why do they deserve it since it could easily be argued the world would be better off without them.

wtf did I just read

Ok. You kinda sound like Hitler.

Pure comedic gold.

Jokingly was told, if there's no heaven(god) and hell(satan) how do you determine good and evil.

After pokerfacing for like 20 minutes, I began to think maybe this is some peoples actual feelings towards this subject?

If my posts in the other thread hadn't vanished you'd know what i believe and that i abhor the kind of thing i just laid out. I also expect atheists to abhor it but I want to know exactly why. I'm told my reasoning is all flawed, so spell it out for me so I can understand. Why as an atheist do you value my life? I spread misinformation, I don't recycle like I should and I probably fart a lot which we really cannot afford. I don't even play FFXI right, and there are tons of witnesses that can attest to that. (:

What does my continued existence, my life at any point, mean to you all? Don't get angry, just tell me if there is anything to tell.

it probly means that youre worthless