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DRK Suggestions:we're in ur game balancin ur dudes
Bismarck.Selzak
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bismarck.Selzak 2011-01-09 15:48:42
Cerberus.Starr said:
but it's so much easier and more productive to level WAR/MNK/NIN than to QQ and expect anything off SE.
I'm leveling MNK now, but I'll still try to play DRK and do anything I can to help push it back into relevance. People don't play broken jobs because they're idiots, most of the time they just like that particular job. It's like telling an artist to start painting houses because it's easier to get paid that way.
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Fenrir.Mankey
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1323
By Fenrir.Mankey 2011-01-09 15:52:36
if its not gradd or that Odin DRK (Can't remember his name) its not a real DRK and should be on another job.
Phoenix.Fredjan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-01-09 16:16:26
Fenrir.Mankey said: if its not gradd or zicdeh its not a real DRK and should be on another job.
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Gilgamesh.Sanders
Server: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24
By Gilgamesh.Sanders 2011-01-09 16:26:40
Bismarck.Selzak said: Bismarck.Altar said: You want to be able to terrorize a mob for 1 minute, every 3 minutes.
...
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE?
Letters like this are the reason SE ignores any ideas the playerbase sends them. The one minute duration would be a time period through which the mob might be terrorized by some secondary condition, like damage dealt within a certain period of time. For example, the situation I played out where a DRK uses the ability before mages go through a couple of rounds of nukes. This might cause two terrorize procs that would last something like 5 seconds each.
EX:
DRK uses Fear on mob.
Mob is inflicted with Fear. (Will last one minute)
-If certain conditions are met, the Fear effect may cause Terror.
Also, as I mentioned several times in the letter, this was never meant as "You should do all of this for DRK." They are separate ideas as to how DRK could be made to fit a more defined role within the game.
I don't care about DRK in previous games, FFXI is obviously a different story. Each job should offer something significant that no other job can, and I don't think DRK really accomplishes that right now.
I just think half the folks who piped up about the 3min recast and 1min duration are retards, and am amazed I'm the only person who read it as the OP wrote it.
Otherwise, it is a QQ thread. But w/e, DRK is free to fight for their limelight.
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Sylph.Kimble
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2011-01-09 16:47:01
Honestly, Give DRK and SAM crit WSs, problem solved for both. Its THAT simple.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-01-09 16:51:07
Sylph.Kimble said: Honestly, Give DRK and SAM crit WSs, problem solved for both. Its THAT simple.
The fact that DRK already has one, and you seem to not know that, shows just how much you contribute to this discussion.
If what you really meant was give Great Sword and Scythe a Critical WS, well, I also have to say "nothx" since we might as well just be playing warrior at that point.
DRK has been in a state of disrepair since before ToAU, this isn't a new thing, SE just seems to forget the job exists.
Just to be fair, I judge nothing off Abyssea content, it's horribly skewed for a select few jobs (Mostly WHM and the Crit DD) so anything I say is based off true assessment in shittytown standard Vana'Diel, and in that regard, Samurai is still the most powerful DD in the game. You know, if there was an Atma with Crit Hit Rate: Superior, DEX: superior and WSDMG Superior, the playing field would be pretty level again, or at least not Pollock Hill V. Mt. Everest.
Sylph.Kimble
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2011-01-09 17:00:18
Nope, well aware of the fact that DRK has Vorpal Scythe and Rampage but
1) Vorpal Scythe still doesnt do good enough damage to keep up.
2) DRK hasnt gotten any good axes since level cape was increased.
So, let me re-phase
Give DRK a better crit WS or give DRK better axes to use.
PS. Little known fact but SAM was never "the most powerful DD in the game" A well geared MNK and WAR was able to do the same if not more than a well geared SAM.
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Phoenix.Fredjan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-01-09 17:02:28
Augmented Doom Tabar, but what's the point of doing that on DRK again? MeleeWHM would be more useful...
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 295
By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-01-09 17:07:17
Topic title misspelled Paladin.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-01-09 17:16:09
Sylph.Kimble said: Nope, well aware of the fact that DRK has Vorpal Scythe and Rampage but
1) Vorpal Scythe still doesnt do good enough damage to keep up.
2) DRK hasnt gotten any good axes since level cape was increased.
So, let me re-phase
Give DRK a better crit WS or give DRK better axes to use.
PS. Little known fact but SAM was never "the most powerful DD in the game" A well geared MNK and WAR was able to do the same if not more than a well geared SAM.
Still not a solution at all. Proper "Balance" dictates that each job maintain a sense of individuality. This would just make DRK feel like Warrior.
Maybe it's just how I interpret the job, but I think DRK should be about *** with the target. A combat job that severely debilitates it's target, augmenting his own, and his allies abilities through those means.
A good example is Absorb-Acc, most people disregard this as a useless buff for the DRK, I see it as a valuable Debuff for the NIN or THF, and frequently get requested to cast it (Especially on things like which, depending on Gear, can hover in that zone where every point of Evasion/Acc down counts)
There's all sorts of ways you can make drk useful without making it "Teh top dps dawg" which is actually what I'd like to see. Warrior, monk and Samurai already fight eachother over this slot, and quite frankly, that's all those jobs have the possibility to offer, DRK has the opportunity to do more than beat the ***out of things.
Also, just in regards to Samurai; the Job had quite a personal touch associated with it, two players with the same gear could produce much different parse results. A skilled Samurai could run cockslapping circles around any MNK or WAR, at least that's what I've seen with no exceptions, though I'm always open to believe the "Suck" Bias, that the opposition was just gimp or lazy.
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Cerberus.Starr
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1050
By Cerberus.Starr 2011-01-09 17:21:09
Bismarck.Selzak said: It's like telling an artist to start painting houses because it's easier to get paid that way. That depends what kind of artist you are talking about...
1. An artist who makes art because he loves to, irrelevant of getting any money from it or not
2. Someone who makes art for money
For 1 it is irrelevant to him what he creates at it has no bearing on the reason he makes art for. For 2, given it is an option that he can paint houses well, it is a logical and productive change so he would be an idiot not to. Number 2 is the only one relative to the situation though.
Sylph.Kimble
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2011-01-09 17:21:34
Honestly, the only way DRK is going to be different than Warrior is if they gave DRK better use of their magic but again, how exactly would you go about doing that?
Give them better nukes? They get TIII, couldnt really give them TIV because they would get into RDMs territory. Give them Stronger enfeebles? Again, goes into what a RDM does.
Phoenix.Fredjan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-01-09 17:27:23
DRK would need weird buffs/debuffs, but SE gave them to NIN instead.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 295
By Sylph.Rorrick 2011-01-09 17:31:23
Odin.Zicdeh said: Also, just in regards to Samurai; the Job had quite a personal touch associated with it, two players with the same gear could produce much different parse results. A skilled Samurai could run cockslapping circles around any MNK or WAR, at least that's what I've seen with no exceptions, though I'm always open to believe the "Suck" Bias, that the opposition was just gimp or lazy.
Properly geared WAR and MNK could compete with SAM at 75. Half-assed SAM would blow away half-assed anything because Gekko is retard proof.
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Bismarck.Selzak
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bismarck.Selzak 2011-01-09 17:38:43
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Proper "Balance" dictates that each job maintain a sense of individuality. This would just make DRK feel like Warrior.
Maybe it's just how I interpret the job, but I think DRK should be about *** with the target. A combat job that severely debilitates it's target, augmenting his own, and his allies abilities through those means.
Even though we're sworn enemies now, you are doing this right. DRK doesn't have to gain more physical power to fill a role again. It just needs an identity. We do good damage now, but since that's pretty much all we do we either need to do better than good or gain some other utilities. The latter would be much more interesting than just dealing damage on par with MNK but with big weapons.
Odin.Zicdeh said: A good example is Absorb-Acc, most people disregard this as a useless buff for the DRK, I see it as a valuable Debuff for the NIN or THF, and frequently get requested to cast it (Especially on things like which, depending on Gear, can hover in that zone where every point of Evasion/Acc down counts) I definitely do the same thing for EVA tanks. Actually, a smart DRK has always been a great compliment to blink tanks. Still, I don't think a group would say, "We need a DRK to Absorb-ACC and Stun for our NIN." Nor should they, we need a significant role.
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Quetzalcoatl.Volkom
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1294
By Quetzalcoatl.Volkom 2011-01-09 17:39:00
I'm going to agree with the OP that SE does need to follow its own lore on Dark Knights. But adding things that could be potentially overpowered or fairly unbalanced would be super bad.
As for giving Dark Knights fighting stances...srsly.. wtf? go sub samurai
I'd say give us weaponskills that have similar descriptions to the abilities found in FF tactics http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight_(Final_Fantasy_Tactics)
and give us a job trait that lets us do more damage when our hp is lower :D
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Bismarck.Selzak
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bismarck.Selzak 2011-01-09 17:48:37
Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said: I'm going to agree with the OP that SE does need to follow its own lore on Dark Knights. But adding things that could be potentially overpowered or fairly unbalanced would be super bad. I think my first idea was sorely misunderstood here. Taken in its intended context, I don't think it would be overpowered. Actually, I didn't even strictly define it so it really can't even be judged as balanced or not.
The main takeaway that I intended for the reader was that we would do well to gain a Terror ability because it would help us realize the role of "Stun Knight" while also fitting very nicely into game lore. Maybe I just wrote the whole thing poorly.
I didn't mean to say, "We need X ability and Y spell that does '...'" and I tried to make that clear by repeatedly stating such. I don't want to see any job overpowered, and one thing I do trust SE to always do is eventually swing the nerf bat when that happens.
The goal is to open up conversation about the role of Dark Knight, discuss how it might be applied, and please send those suggestions to SE via the link in the OP so that we might be able to grab their attention and push them in the direction that we feel the job should go. I honestly don't think they have found that direction themselves, judging by previous updates.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-01-09 17:54:38
Sylph.Rorrick said:
Properly geared WAR and MNK could compete with SAM at 75. Half-assed SAM would blow away half-assed anything because Gekko is retard proof.
That's very true. Like I said, suck bias, I certainly haven't seen everyone play MNK and WAR.
Phoenix.Fredjan said: DRK would need weird buffs/debuffs, but SE gave them to NIN instead.
Yes, they pretty much gave DRK's original design concept to Ninja.
Sylph.Kimble said: Honestly, the only way DRK is going to be different than Warrior is if they gave DRK better use of their magic but again, how exactly would you go about doing that?
Give them better nukes? They get TIII, couldnt really give them TIV because they would get into RDMs territory. Give them Stronger enfeebles? Again, goes into what a RDM does.
DRK's not really supposed to nuke. And nobody said Stronger enfeebles, independent enfeebles could make DRK useful without nudging out RDM. It's all about making the job Co-exist well with the others. And that's what pissed me off so much about the 90 cap, last time we got a spell really worth casting. Endark with it's scaling ablative damage and Attack bonus was an amazing addition that gave me hope that SE (Naivety goooo) finally pulled their head out of their *** and had a look at the job.
And then next patch, Fire III.... Seriously, just get rid of all DRK's elemental magic.
Hey, if nothing else though, we easily got the best *** DD body ever conceived.
Phoenix.Fredjan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-01-09 20:14:04
I'd like to see DRK get Fast Cast and more high-mp spells, tbh.
Server: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 611
By Titan.Darkestknight 2011-01-09 20:45:09
Phoenix.Fredjan said: I'd like to see DRK get Fast Cast and more high-mp spells, tbh.
So basically you want them as a RDM with more Melee capabilities.... That's not at all broken.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-01-09 20:47:47
I'd like the absorb spells to actually buff party members.
Absorb TP? Then everyone in the party gets a bit.
Fenrir.Gradd
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1097
By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-01-09 20:58:23
Fenrir.Mankey said: if its not gradd or that Odin DRK (Can't remember his name) its not a real DRK and should be on another job.
Lol I love you boss! No homo <3
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1255
By Shiva.Khimaira 2011-01-09 21:32:39
Bismarck.Altar said: You want to be able to terrorize a mob for 1 minute, every 3 minutes.
...
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE?
Letters like this are the reason SE ignores any ideas the playerbase sends them. This, this and this again.
I'd say even one second every three minutes would be asking too much from a job ability.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1255
By Shiva.Khimaira 2011-01-09 21:38:00
Bismarck.Selzak said: Bismarck.Altar said: You want to be able to terrorize a mob for 1 minute, every 3 minutes.
...
Are you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE?
Letters like this are the reason SE ignores any ideas the playerbase sends them. The one minute duration would be a time period through which the mob might be terrorized by some secondary condition, like damage dealt within a certain period of time. For example, the situation I played out where a DRK uses the ability before mages go through a couple of rounds of nukes. This might cause two terrorize procs that would last something like 5 seconds each.
EX:
DRK uses Fear on mob.
Mob is inflicted with Fear. (Will last one minute)
-If certain conditions are met, the Fear effect may cause Terror.
Also, as I mentioned several times in the letter, this was never meant as "You should do all of this for DRK." They are separate ideas as to how DRK could be made to fit a more defined role within the game.
I don't care about DRK in previous games, FFXI is obviously a different story. Each job should offer something significant that no other job can, and I don't think DRK really accomplishes that right now.
A job ability that gave DRK En-terror, much like auspice's en-light while under Afflatus (Solace?) would be more practical, and yet still stupid.
Caitsith.Surge
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2011-01-09 21:54:31
Bismarck.Selzak said: Odin.Zicdeh said: Proper "Balance" dictates that each job maintain a sense of individuality. This would just make DRK feel like Warrior. Maybe it's just how I interpret the job, but I think DRK should be about *** with the target. A combat job that severely debilitates it's target, augmenting his own, and his allies abilities through those means. Even though we're sworn enemies now, you are doing this right. DRK doesn't have to gain more physical power to fill a role again. It just needs an identity. We do good damage now, but since that's pretty much all we do we either need to do better than good or gain some other utilities. The latter would be much more interesting than just dealing damage on par with MNK but with big weapons. Odin.Zicdeh said: A good example is Absorb-Acc, most people disregard this as a useless buff for the DRK, I see it as a valuable Debuff for the NIN or THF, and frequently get requested to cast it (Especially on things like which, depending on Gear, can hover in that zone where every point of Evasion/Acc down counts) I definitely do the same thing for EVA tanks. Actually, a smart DRK has always been a great compliment to blink tanks. Still, I don't think a group would say, "We need a DRK to Absorb-ACC and Stun for our NIN." Nor should they, we need a significant role.
Before i had to leave the game i actually had a couple of drks sit by the mages and do nothing but absorb spells and spam stun (If there wasnt aga spells/harmful ja's in the mix) It worked out extremely well.
But i do agree i think drk should get a ja that does terror kinda like the killer effects that alot of jobs have now. I think they are good on spells a couple i can think of is stun II and absorb spells II but that would be all. But a terror ja would be good to have prolly give it the recast time of either soul eater or last resort to make it not be broken. I do like the idea for pld though other then sential lol
EDIT: The drks that ran with me also ws'd @ 100tp or more prefered after the mob/boss tp'd so they wouldnt get beaten.
Server: Sylph
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Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-09 22:04:59
lol I'd laugh if they gave you stun II because of your first point.
Caitsith.Surge
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2011-01-09 22:34:49
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: lol I'd laugh if they gave you stun II because of your first point.
lol it would be helpful though. Its not all that needed but it would be good to have when stun is down then do the second, and also i didnt clairfy on my last post lol. That was a strat we used on Ganghcan (not spelt right i dont think) since he spammed the 0 tp move it made more sense to send them in after. Otherwise we would have them come /nin or /thf or get hate on the tanks.
Bismarck.Selzak
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bismarck.Selzak 2011-01-10 00:22:52
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: lol I'd laugh if they gave you stun II because of your first point. Wouldn't mind it at all. Even if it was just another Stun on a different timer it would help.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-01-10 00:35:15
I'd be all over Stun II like a fat girl on cheesecake.
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I'm making this thread to hopefully convince more people to contact SE with suggestions for DRK. If they get a lot of e-mails regarding this one issue in a short period of time, it should at least grab their attention.
Below is what I wrote to them concerning the job. You can discuss, like, hate, be indifferent, or whatever. Please do try to keep it constructive though, and give ideas of your own. Most importantly, send those suggestions forward to SE! I know most of you probably think it's a waste of time, but I think enough feedback would definitely make them think about the job.
Here's the link to contact SE:
http://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1
Here are my suggestions:
Quote: I suspect that this is a popular issue at the moment, and with good reason. Currently, the Dark Knight job is in desperate need of something to set it apart and define its role.
I believe the overall expectation of the job from the community is a melee damage dealer whose specialty (what it does better than any other job) is spike damage while also holding a few unique magic tricks up its sleeve. As it stands now, however, Dark Knights have fallen far behind in damage (especially spike damage) and its casting abilities are on the verge of being obsolete.
To fix this problem properly and maintain the utmost integrity with respect to the job's position in both game mechanics and lore, I would like to propose a few routes that the job could take to fall into its own niche and reestablish balance among jobs. I will do this not with the intention of having specific abilities and traits added, but simply by extending to you certain possible paths that would match the feelings and expectations associated with the job. Ideas from these paths may be extensively altered, combined, and picked apart but I believe the game's balance would benefit greatly by defining the Dark Knight along the following lines:
PATH 1: TERROR
In terms of lore, Dark Knight is a job that is expected to impose fear. In terms of game mechanics, the Dark Knight's most demanded specialty is the ability to Stun enemies. While this is a legitimate and proper role, the only method available to Dark Knight to accomplish this role is the spell, Stun. Not only is this spell not unique to Dark Knight, it is also available from sub jobs. In addition, Dark Knight does not excel at stunning, a stun from a Dark Knight is no better than any other stun. Weapon Bash, with its 5:00 recast is not noteworthy in this scheme.
What I propose, as an individual who has been a FFXI subscriber for the better part of 7 years, is that this becomes the primary role of the Dark Knight. To do this, it is important to remember that a particular role must be filled throughout the duration of a task and abilities and spells should be carefully examined with regard to recast timers. A job ability (Fear), could be used on a target to occasionally inflict the Terror status upon it. This ability could be a 3:00 recast with a 1:00 duration, and the chance of the target being Terrorized could be based on any number of appropriate dynamics. Again, though, it is important to realize that this would be a staple ability of the job, and should be effective enough to give Dark Knights a unique and demanded role in most situations. Perhaps the effectiveness of this ability could be checked against the player's attack, or the amount of overall damage being done to an enemy within a given time. A Dark Knight might use this ability in preparation for a round of elemental spells by the group's mages, and provide an effective and moderately long-lasting halt on the monster's activity to maintain control of the fight.
This route would also benefit from any spell or combination of spells that deal with stopping the monster in its tracks. The single spell, Stun, is not quite enough.
PATH 2: BIG NUMBERS
Most people play Dark Knight expecting to deal large amounts of damage. In contrast to jobs like Monk, which deal huge amounts of damage over time, Dark Knights have been supposed to put out huge amounts of spike damage. There are a few nuances, of which I'm sure the development team is already aware of, that are keeping Dark Knights from realizing this role and I won't go into those. What I will address, however, is what seems to be the most overlooked and blatantly broken ability in the game; Souleater. This is obviously the Dark Knight's defining ability, but it is plainly impractical to utilize within the game's mechanics. Perhaps an ability like the one proposed above (Fear) might allow the player to use Souleater while keeping the monster Terrorized throughout the majority of its allotted activity. Another thing to consider would be a simple job trait (again, working on the lore of an imposing and feared Dark Knight) that reduces the enemies desire (or enmity) towards the Dark Knight either overall, or when the player inflicts large amounts of damage. Maybe this trait could activate when the Dark Knight deals a large amount of damage in a short amount of time, and cause the enemy to lose all enmity on the Dark Knight.
PATH 3: WORTHWHILE MELEE
It seems very wrong that the Dark Knight job can not be considered a serious melee threat. That jobs like Ninja or even Dancer can be considered more capable of melee damage is extremely unfair to Dark Knights and entirely unbalanced. There are so many opportunities to fix this that it seems like a waste of time to offer suggestions, but one problem that is very apparent most players is the inadequacy of the Last Resort ability. This ability should be at least on par with the Warrior ability Berserk, and offer Dark Knight's a longer buff than what it currently allows. The downtime on Last Resort (recast - duration) should be *much* shorter, and a duration of 1:30 or 2:00 seems a lot more reasonable than what it currently is.
These are simply ideas extended to you in an attempt to aid the process of moving the Dark Knight job into an effective and unique role within the game. These ideas come from the community's understanding of the game and the roles of various jobs within it. My hope is that this might provide direction, or simply spark other ideas that would allow Dark Knights to fill one of these roles.
e: For clarity, I am not proposing an ability that would keep the mob Terrorized for a minute. As a whole, I'm not even strictly proposing abilities or spells at all. The idea is to define DRK's role.
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