Knew Stuff Like This Was Coming After DADT Repeal

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Knew stuff like this was coming after DADT repeal
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 Valefor.Slipispsycho
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-12-20 09:42:54
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Some homophobe said:
Following this weekend's vote by the Senate to allow gays to openly serve in the military, Del. Bob Marshall (R-Prince WIlliam) said he is drafting a bill for the 2011 legislative session that would ban them from serving in the Virginia National Guard.

"This policy will weaken military recruitment and retention, and will increase pressure for a military draft,'' Marshall said. "After 232 years of prohibiting active, open homosexuals from enlisting in our military, President Obama and a majority in Congress are conducting a social experiment with our troops and our national security...In countries where religions and cultures find homosexual acts immoral, the Obama administration's repeal policy will work to the detriment of all American troops in securing local cooperation with our nation's foreign policy goals."

link.
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 Asura.Olue
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By Asura.Olue 2010-12-20 14:32:21
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It's nothing but a political move. Republicans will do anything to make their voters believe Obama is doing something wrong. It's one of the reasons why republicans CAN'T vote on anything with the democrats, because they've convinced their base that voting with democrats is destroying the country. Even if something profoundly beneficial was put to a vote by a democrat, the republicans can't vote yes on it because their voters are brainwashed into thinking anything democrat is everything evil.

As for the republicans that voted yes on the DADT repeal: they've got some balls, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got voted out for it next election.
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 Bismarck.Tuvae
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By Bismarck.Tuvae 2010-12-20 14:34:34
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Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?
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 Asura.Dameshi
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By Asura.Dameshi 2010-12-20 14:42:32
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Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?
Here in USA, our politicians insist on turning back time to an earlier era. We're currently in the 1950's, but watch for us to go back further.
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 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-12-20 14:43:16
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I like how he uses the constitution to defend withholding constitutionally guaranteed rights.
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 Bismarck.Tuvae
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By Bismarck.Tuvae 2010-12-20 14:45:16
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Asura.Dameshi said:
Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?
Here in USA, our politicians insist on turning back time to an earlier era. We're currently in the 1950's, but watch for us to go back further.
Im sure theres a joke in there about going back far enough to before your independance... >=o We will own you AGAIN!
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 Asura.Dameshi
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By Asura.Dameshi 2010-12-20 14:46:04
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Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Asura.Dameshi said:
Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?
Here in USA, our politicians insist on turning back time to an earlier era. We're currently in the 1950's, but watch for us to go back further.
Im sure theres a joke in there about going back far enough to before your independance... >=o We will own you AGAIN!
I don't know if that would be a good thing or not at this point.
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-21 05:00:09
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In the end you can't use the constitution for justification of any system of belief. The moment you see that the constitution can be amended you have to realize, hmmmm.... maybe this thing isnt so concrete. The truth is that anyone who basis their entire argument on the constitution is foolish. What if we amended the constitution to say that EXACT oposite? Would you belief change? Probably not, which means that your belief is based upon your own ideology and is independent of, but in this one case circumstantially agreeing with, the constitution.

TL:DR Don't use the constitution to support your bigotry etc.
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 Caitsith.Judaine
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By Caitsith.Judaine 2010-12-21 05:02:52
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Democrats will whine and complain that the constitution doesn't give enough rights, and there needs to be new laws/rights/etc.

Republicans will *** and moan about how Congress and the House doesn't pass laws according to the constitution.

Just remember both sides.
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-21 05:05:41
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Caitsith.Judaine said:
Democrats will whine and complain that the constitution doesn't give enough rights, and there needs to be new laws/rights/etc. Republicans will *** and moan about how Congress and the House doesn't pass laws according to the constitution. Just remember both sides.

I think that both sides don't actually give a ***about the constitution unless they can use it in their argument.
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-12-21 05:13:47
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Phoenix.Excelior said:
Caitsith.Judaine said:
Democrats will whine and complain that the constitution doesn't give enough rights, and there needs to be new laws/rights/etc. Republicans will *** and moan about how Congress and the House doesn't pass laws according to the constitution. Just remember both sides.

I think that both sides don't actually give a ***about the constitution unless they can use it in their argument.

So *** true.
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-21 05:14:39
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Bahamut.Serj said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Caitsith.Judaine said:
Democrats will whine and complain that the constitution doesn't give enough rights, and there needs to be new laws/rights/etc. Republicans will *** and moan about how Congress and the House doesn't pass laws according to the constitution. Just remember both sides.
I think that both sides don't actually give a ***about the constitution unless they can use it in their argument.
So *** true.

Why are you always off msn D:?
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-12-21 05:18:26
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Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Serj said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Caitsith.Judaine said:
Democrats will whine and complain that the constitution doesn't give enough rights, and there needs to be new laws/rights/etc. Republicans will *** and moan about how Congress and the House doesn't pass laws according to the constitution. Just remember both sides.
I think that both sides don't actually give a ***about the constitution unless they can use it in their argument.
So *** true.

Why are you always off msn D:?

Lulz.
 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2010-12-22 08:24:26
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Asura.Olue said:
It's nothing but a political move. Republicans will do anything to make their voters believe Obama is doing something wrong. It's one of the reasons why republicans CAN'T vote on anything with the democrats, because they've convinced their base that voting with democrats is destroying the country.

So very true.

Asura.Dameshi said:

Here in USA, our politicians insist on turning back time to an earlier era.

Also so very true.

Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
I like how he uses the constitution to defend withholding constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Haha! Also so true. Don't like a new idea? Just call it "unconstitutional" and sheep will follow you!
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-22 08:34:15
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You know it is also possible that we don't want to go back in time socially. Maybe we just do not want to move forward too quickly. The dynamic of republicans turning back the clock and democrats moving forward sort of balances us out. I have no doubt that if any single party were to have control for a very long time it would ruin our country.

The most helpful phrase in life comes from a vodka advertisement;

"Everything in moderation"

The guy who is trying to outlaw gays in the military may very well be a bigot or a moron. He may also be a man who thinks that change is coming far too quickly. In either case we NEED him to voice his opinion because it will make us THINK about what we're doing. Our thinking may only constitute a "no this guy is *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE, we are right", but that is still THINKING about the issue. The moment we stop over analyzing things and engage in Group Think we're going to be severely ***.

Having said all that, I hope he is simply a voice of moderation and not one of bigotry. I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause, we need to just end that kind of narrow-minded thinking.
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 Kujata.Segaia
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By Kujata.Segaia 2010-12-22 08:46:46
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Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?

I cant believe this aswell and i cant believe ppl would vote against it.

... ugh... i mean rly... u got to be a goddamn douchebag -.-
 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2010-12-22 09:03:08
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Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
I like how he uses the constitution to defend withholding constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Asura.Olue said:
It's nothing but a political move. Republicans will do anything to make their voters believe Obama is doing something wrong. It's one of the reasons why republicans CAN'T vote on anything with the democrats, because they've convinced their base that voting with democrats is destroying the country. Even if something profoundly beneficial was put to a vote by a democrat, the republicans can't vote yes on it because their voters are brainwashed into thinking anything democrat is everything evil.

As for the republicans that voted yes on the DADT repeal: they've got some balls, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got voted out for it next election.

Anyone who doesn't think there are people who WON'T sign up because this has now passed is simple in denial, I dont doubt there are also people who WILL now sign up that wouldn't before. I just hope the positives outweigh the negatives and our fighting force isn't handicapped, because we'd really be screwed if they were.
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 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-22 09:05:05
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You know, i'm not at all against gays serving in our military. I'm just not understanding why everyone needs to know your sexual affiliation on the job. (Keep in mind straight soldiers get thrown out of the military for breaking sexual codes of conduct as well.)

I've been listening to the debate, mostly people trying to explain why this is a bad thing, and haven't heard many good points, until one person called in and made a decent point with a question. An interesting question lies in the following: In a combat situation, if the commanding officer decides to send in a gay soldier into a dangerous situation, can that soldier refuse and then sue for discrimination?

I don't expect any real concrete answers on here unless your a lawyer, and even moreso in the military. But I thought it was an interesting question.
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 Fenrir.Terminus
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2010-12-22 09:39:05
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Gay people should be allowed equal rights as anyone else. That is true, and it's good.

Not many people are considering what the repeal of this does, and what the impact really is, however. First, I have to say a couple things - if you don't agree with them, then I probably won't make my point.

1. Everyone should have the same rights and opportunities (if the have the ability) as anyone else.

2. Military service has the potential for exceptionally close quartered, intimate, stressful conditions. Moreso than what anyone else will experience.

3. People have individual feelings about different things, and the right to those feelings. Specifically, in this case, the right to be uncomfortable in compulsive close quarters with gay people.

4. This isn't about what you or I think or feel. This is about what the people affected think and feel.

So let's look at the "best case" for everyone type of situation. Say, some Army administrative office. The people working there are more like civilians - they have regular hours that are more like the standard 40 hour work week. They stay in one place. They go home every night. They rank structure is a little more relaxed. Physical training is not as emphasized and is usually an "on your own" type of thing. If someone is uncomfortable with someone's sexuality, the most intimate situation they might find themselves in with that person is in a bathroom for a couple of minutes. This is kind of situation is easily avoided, or, brief enough to tough it out.

On the flip side, take, say, a USMC Infantry company who has been in Afghanistan for months. Their situation is different. They work long hours performing difficult, stressful work in dangerous conditions. They frequently move. They are thousands of miles from home. They work and live with the same people for months. There is little, or no, privacy whatsoever. There is a constant reminder and threat of death. These people might NEVER be more than 6 feet or so away from any other random person. They eat, sleep, shower, go to the bathroom, laugh, fight, cry, work and play together - not by choice, by chance. The most intimate situation in this case is MUCH more intimate than the other. Imagine trying to masturbate. Take a ***. Whatever. If someone has an issue with someone's sexuality there, there is NO AVOIDING it - it can become an aspect of every part of your life.

Keep in mind that tiny stresses in this situation can very easily become huge issues. I've seen people come to blows over what is normally very stupid an unimportant things - Pepsi vs Coke kinds of things. Maybe you can see how someone's sexuality can be a major distraction.

So, who else has sexuality different from the average Infantryman? Women. (But whoever reading this can just use the opposite sex of them. I will default to females because I am a male, but I just mean the other sex.) Here's your situation:

1. You wake up everyday a couple feet from a woman.
2. You shower with women.
3. Women are there when you ***.
4. You eat with the same women.
5. You work with the same women.
6. You work out with the same women.
7. You shave with the same women.
8. You do laundry the same women.
9. Your weakest moments are the same women.
10. Your entire life is spent the same women.
11. Oh yeah - you almost died yesterday, and you might die today, your grandmother died, your wife is cheating on you, your dad has cancer, and you won't be home for another six months.

Isn't it reasonable to see how that can stress you out?

So what's the choice? Are you going to legislate complete open mindedness? Cancel shyness? Force everyone to have the same attitudes? It seems to me that keeping as many causes of stress away as possible is the best option for mission accomplishment AND overall troop welfare.

Is that fair? Absolutely not. Does it work? Absolutely.

Now, before people start crying about how backwards and intolerant the military is - stop. While you can't get rid of that in general, the people I've known and served with were far more tolerant to things like race, religion, heritage, etc. We came from far different backgrounds, but ended up family. So have some patience.

So here's another thought. Think about how the world, at least the US, really works. Let's say, I have a problem with Joe Smith telling stories about his sex life. All I have to do is say something, and he has to stop. Now, though, that depends. Because let's say Joe Smith is gay. If I tell him to stop, and he doesn't like being told that - oh, now I'm discriminating. Or at the very least, now I am starting the long path to try to prove to someone that I am not discriminating, that I really just don't want to hear sex stories, that gay people are cool, and that I should in fact be allowed to continue to perform my chosen profession.

It's weird how equal rights often is anything but.

Anyways, that's all some of my thoughts about it. Hopefully it makes some sense to someone!

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 Lakshmi.Rylis
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By Lakshmi.Rylis 2010-12-22 09:58:56
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Valefor.Slipispsycho said:
Some homophobe said:
In countries where religions and cultures find homosexual acts immoral, the Obama administration's repeal policy will work to the detriment of all American troops in securing local cooperation with our nation's foreign policy goals."

link.

For the record, I imagine that if our troops are there, the local factions may be more offended by our shooting them, not by the guys who are dressed the most fashionably.

As to what Terminus has mentioned, that kind of blanket argument can be used to discriminate against anyone in the military, for all sorts of intolerance. I've seen people who believed some truly stupid things about what someone's race will make them do. There are many who'd find themselves offended about how someone of another religion conducts themselves.

To say that homosexuality adds another facet of stress because of mismatched sexuality is a bit silly, in that case. It can, to those focused on it. But so can religion, yet there's no DADT on that. Race? Sure! Generic lifestyle choices? Yep.

To say that we should leave a policy like this in place simply because it reduces stress just doesn't work. People are stupid enough to take offense to all sorts of things, and we can't simply grind everyone down to fit together, neatly. Personally, I find it easier to not take offense to how someone else conducts their life, so long as it doesn't spill over into mine in a negative manner.

Because all those GIs thinking about how a guy in their unit is now openly gay, and are stressing out about, consider this: He's the same guy who saved your *** last week. Not only that, but he's the guy who has been saving your *** despite the fact that you don't like his type. And he's the guy who has been doing it while afraid that if anyone finds out he's gay, he's getting kicked out of the military. Probably not very stressful, though, right? I mean, hiding any semblance of your sexual preference is most likely as easy as flipping a switch.
 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2010-12-22 10:09:33
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Yeah those things are all nice to think about Rylis but can we make winning the war/conflict the highest priority instead of being the most tolerance?

I mean do you really think we're invincible enough to absorb the negative effects of this without notice or do you not care if a few more troops die because of the effects of this?
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By Phoenix.Mogue 2010-12-22 10:13:34
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Cerberus.Zandra said:
Yeah those things are all nice to think about Rylis but can we make winning the war/conflict the highest priority instead of being the most tolerance?

I mean do you really think we're invincible enough to absorb the negative effects of this without notice or do you not care if a few more troops die because of the effects of this?
coded bigotry
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 Cerberus.Rictor
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By Cerberus.Rictor 2010-12-22 10:13:47
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Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
You know, i'm not at all against gays serving in our military. I'm just not understanding why everyone needs to know your sexual affiliation on the job.

It's not really an issue of wearing sexuality on the sleeve while at work, but rather, lying about what happened during off time. Previously, if a gay soldier, while active, were asked what he or she did while at home, then he or she would have to lie if any of their time involved being with a same-sex partner.

Edit: for teh grammar nazis
 Ifrit.Kungfuhustle
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-12-22 10:14:44
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the old white men in office believe gay men won't shoot straight.
 Ramuh.Gurion
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By Ramuh.Gurion 2010-12-22 10:15:19
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Ifrit.Kungfuhustle said:
the old white men in office believe gay men won't shoot straight.

Zing
 Cerberus.Zandra
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By Cerberus.Zandra 2010-12-22 10:19:25
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Phoenix.Mogue said:
Cerberus.Zandra said:
Yeah those things are all nice to think about Rylis but can we make winning the war/conflict the highest priority instead of being the most tolerance?

I mean do you really think we're invincible enough to absorb the negative effects of this without notice or do you not care if a few more troops die because of the effects of this?
coded bigotry

It's not bigotry, its a serious question. If you don't think the added stress might end up killing a few people you are simply in denial...

For the record I don't have any problem with gays serving in the military openly. I just think the military is in a better position to know how it will affect them than the public.
 Alexander.Kewitt
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By Alexander.Kewitt 2010-12-22 10:30:56
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Bismarck.Tuvae said:
Wait, gays cant openly serve in the military? What century is this..?

http://theview.abc.go.com/forum/52-republicans-believe-creationism

This is all I have to say about the state of the USA. REALLY REALLY REALLY OMFG can we please put money into education. Really! The hell with Roads, Health, Gays servering open.

http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/john-farrell/2010/12/22/university-study-fox-viewers-more-misinformed
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 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-22 10:42:01
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Cerberus.Rictor said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
You know, i'm not at all against gays serving in our military. I'm just not understanding why everyone needs to know your sexual affiliation on the job.
It's not really an issue of wearing sexuality on the sleeve while at work, but rather, lying about what happened during off time. Previously, if a gay soldier, while active, were asked what he or she did while at home, then he or she would have to lie if any of their time involved being with a same-sex partner. Edit: for teh grammar nazis

If you have sex with a woman in a postion other than missionary position you can get in trouble, per army manual.
 Fenrir.Terminus
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2010-12-22 10:43:04
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Lakshmi.Rylis said:

As to what Terminus has mentioned, that kind of blanket argument can be used to discriminate against anyone in the military, for all sorts of intolerance. I've seen people who believed some truly stupid things about what someone's race will make them do. There are many who'd find themselves offended about how someone of another religion conducts themselves.

To say that homosexuality adds another facet of stress because of mismatched sexuality is a bit silly, in that case. It can, to those focused on it. But so can religion, yet there's no DADT on that. Race? Sure! Generic lifestyle choices? Yep.

To say that we should leave a policy like this in place simply because it reduces stress just doesn't work. People are stupid enough to take offense to all sorts of things, and we can't simply grind everyone down to fit together, neatly. Personally, I find it easier to not take offense to how someone else conducts their life, so long as it doesn't spill over into mine in a negative manner.

Because all those GIs thinking about how a guy in their unit is now openly gay, and are stressing out about, consider this: He's the same guy who saved your *** last week. Not only that, but he's the guy who has been saving your *** despite the fact that you don't like his type. And he's the guy who has been doing it while afraid that if anyone finds out he's gay, he's getting kicked out of the military. Probably not very stressful, though, right? I mean, hiding any semblance of your sexual preference is most likely as easy as flipping a switch.

Yeah, that's all true. And there are all kinds of crazy *** opinions and beliefs - in the military and everywhere else.

But I am not talking about hating gay people.

What I mean to try to think about it is all the different ways people are segregated in our society because of sexuality. It's tough to try to explain...

(ignore any other debates about gender/ability/etc this is sexuality)

4 groups of people:
1. Straight men that can do x job.
2. Straight women that can do x job.
3. Gay men that can do x job.
4. Gay women that can do x job.

My question is this:

Why should groups 1&3 and groups 2&4 be mixed, but not groups 1&2 and 3&4?

(Edit: I can't count.)
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-22 10:47:01
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Really to be honest, the best people for this debate are men and women who have served or are serving in he military. Lot of you guys are sitting in your desk chair or w/e think, aw hell yeah, no more discriminating against gays, thats cool, with zero knowledge of how the work conditions are like or what goes on already on the ground.

Theres lots of funny little rules the military has. Also keep in mind you do sign some of your rights away when you join. Uncle Sam literally owns your body when you sign up. Its considered property of the United States government.
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