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Stage 4 Prime Weapon's effect on Sortie
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2023-07-12 05:27:58
'-')
Server: Asura
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Posts: 160
By Asura.Bynebill 2023-07-12 05:37:22
+2 cases do not exist in the game files, atm.
Maybe they can drop the ??? Earring: Job +2 directly rather than cases.
More cope I know, Trying to see a slightly justifiable reason for this.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2023-07-12 05:41:38
I'm lost. Why would they make bosses HARDER after upgrading a weapon...? How does that logically make any sense besides just injecting forced difficulty into the event you're gonna do anyways? I have to assume the mechanics change because the drops change for your group? Seems weird though if not everyone is on stage 4.
Sounds like more of the Bumba v25 effect. Ran out of ideas to actually challenge players, so they just threw out random mechanics to make it even more impossible/grindy/poop on your established strategy, making you invest MORE time into an already grindy event
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2023-07-12 06:20:27
Everyone being a bit too trigger happy/reactive right now. Take a few days to chill/eat a Snickers.
Asura.Sechs
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Posts: 9921
By Asura.Sechs 2023-07-12 06:21:59
Maybe they can drop the ??? Earring: Job +2 directly rather than cases. Don't want to sound rude but if you put things like that, then y ou might as well expect that doing "something" might make these bosses drop Stage5 complete weapons, or drop 700m gil for whomever is in party etc.
I mean...
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Asura.Sechs
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Posts: 9921
By Asura.Sechs 2023-07-12 06:24:00
I'm lost. Why would they make bosses HARDER after upgrading a weapon...? The only reason I can think of: to artificially slow down the last stage.
So that that "5m galli" required, feels like "10m galli".
I can't think of anything else honestly.
Then again, there's way too many things we don't know atm.
There might be a way to trigger an even different behaviour and prevent this new thing or make it meaningful in some other way.
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By Dodik 2023-07-12 06:32:47
This is some Absolute Virtue level jank right here.
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-07-12 06:38:02
I'm lost. Why would they make bosses HARDER after upgrading a weapon...? The only reason I can think of: to artificially slow down the last stage.
So that that "5m galli" required, feels like "10m galli".
I can't think of anything else honestly.
Then again, there's way too many things we don't know atm.
There might be a way to trigger an even different behaviour and prevent this new thing or make it meaningful in some other way. This but again they said they would behave differently to the weapons. Maybe like you said you gotta find the objective to make it not do it like sc or some ***. This is sortie after all with all these stupid objectives.
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By Asura.Bynebill 2023-07-12 06:38:02
Those comparisons are just silly.
My post was more in jest as I don't think SE really cares but an empowered boss dropping an item from said content isn't that outlandish.
Everyone wants, and at some point even expected a better +2 earring source, and empowered boss fight would be the perfect place to do it.
That's like telling people who were expecting a better way to get +1 cases that getting a new harder boss to drop a +1 case 100% of the time would be the same as expecting him to drop a prime weapon.
By Felgarr 2023-07-12 07:10:53
So, I posted yesterday in the Sortie main thread about how some of the basement bosses had changed AI after acquiring a Stage 4 Prime Weapon. We went in again tonight to test the rest of them, and...well...this is bad. It's bad enough that I felt it justified its own thread so more people can see it.
TL;DR Do not upgrade your Stage 4 Prime Weapon until you are finished with acquiring Gallimaufry, or be prepared to tank the Galli rates for you and any group you join as soon as you get it.
First off, a few commonalities - despite the basement bosses getting harder, the rewards are completely unchanged. 10k Gallimaufry per boss, no guaranteed Case+1, no Mesosiderite (this is probably luck based). Second, actually equipping the Prime Weapon is irrelevant, the bosses are harder if anyone has the Stage 4 anywhere in their inventory. It might be the case that it only looks at the person entering Sortie to determine the AI (both times our party leader had a Stage 4), but that's unlikely. Finally, the base stats of each enemy seem unchanged, it's only their AI that gets altered.
Now, on to the specific bosses. We have recordings of all of the new enrage mechanics, in case anyone's skeptical about all of this. There may be other changes, but these are the ones we've seen. This is all mage strategy, too, so YMMV if you use melee strategy.
Dhartok - Seems mostly unchanged. It seems to favor Noyade more and might use Cesspool earlier, but it dies just the same to mage strategy.
Gartell - Enters double hands mode MUCH sooner, and enters it repeatedly. In our run, he entered it at 65% and 30%, and stayed in it for full duration each time (at least 3 minutes, maybe a bit longer). Bind works from a RDM fairly easily in this mode, but all damage gets tanked and his damage output skyrockets, so it's basically a forced staring contest eating your time while waiting. Gravity seems to work once, then resists badly. It's possible that forcing him to change elements resets the double hands timer, but it's not like that's at all consistent...
Triboulex - Instantly uses Setting the Stage in response to using the same SC element more than once in succession. This one is less confirmed, but after doing a Fire -> Thunder = Fusion Skillchain, doing either Fire or Thunder with Immanence up resulted in death. You can still avoid Setting the Stage going off by kiting him. I don't know if the "same SC property = Death" applies to Weapon Skills, and now that we know Gravity kiting works I quite frankly don't want to test it.
Aita - Has...some sort of new trigger for Vivisection, I'm honestly not sure what it is. The first Vivisection was used 1 minute after pull, the second was used 58 seconds after it's first TP move after re-pulling it. The third took far longer, but we stopped nuking it midway through and it still wasn't the full 3 minutes. These are, of course, separate from the insta-Vivisections it still does upon re-pulling it after a wipe. It might have to do with number of Magic Bursts or something stupid like that?
And last, and certainly worst...
Aminon - 10 seconds after using Bane of Tartarus, Aminon will now instantly use Incessant Void again, regardless of TP. After upgrading to Stage 4, the Absorb-TP strategy is IMPOSSIBLE. Anyone who tried to fight this thing pre-Absorb strategy knows that it's an absolute disaster of a fight, so Aminon basically doesn't exist for our group anymore.
I'm honestly speechless. The fact that the bosses are this much worse for *** reasons, there's seemingly no way to opt out of it after upgrading a weapon, there are no extra rewards beyond a worthless -drite we haven't even seen yet, and there was ZERO indication that this would happen prior to upgrading?! There wasn't even a chat message or any visual indication the bosses are buffed until our group got blindsided by Vivisection at 70%!
The worst part, though? Not everyone in our group even HAS a Stage 4 Prime Weapon! So, unless it only counts the person who enters the group (which, in that case...why?!), that means that if you upgrade to Stage 4, you're destroying the Gallimaufry potential of ANY group you join! Truly, this is one of the most severe case of punishing the player for upgrading an item I've ever seen.
That's why I'm making this a separate topic I guess - making sure as many people see this as possible. Our group was the first to upgrade to Stage 4, and we're paying the price for it now. Spread the word: either keep your Prime Weapons at Stage 3 (and thus be unable to use their WS outside of Sortie), or tank your Gallimaufry rate. What a fun choice that is......
I think you have two options:
1.) Continue to experiment with the increased difficulty.
2.) Drop the weapon and send a picture to SE.
I'm really sorry this is the current of state things. :(
By Taint 2023-07-12 07:19:10
Punishment for progression is absolutely shitty.
Asura.Hya
Server: Asura
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By Asura.Hya 2023-07-12 07:22:33
After some point in FFXI, every single NM has a proc system. Haha, remember when we thought Shinryu's HTBF fight had a proc to improve the ridiculous drop rate for non-accessory Crepuscular items? Not everything *has* to have a proc. It's certainly possible there is no such proc system for the basement NMs while in possession of a Stage 4+ Prime Weapon.
Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
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Posts: 1186
By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-07-12 07:28:32
After some point in FFXI, every single NM has a proc system.
Shinryu HTBF...
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I heard you guys like suffering for this GLOW!!!!
-A-Hole Dev wearing a shirt saying "Don't Think I'm Forcing You"
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Board Member 1: Look they didn't have to do more work, just recycle what they already did and make it less pleasant. Smarter, not harder. Agile. Thinking outside the box.
Board Member 2: Wow such an inspiration. Let's snort some cocaine and NFTs.
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By Nariont 2023-07-12 07:34:51
For a week or so, then strat gets figured out and its businesz as usual
By SimonSes 2023-07-12 07:36:42
For a week or so, then strat gets figured out and its businesz as usual
While the strat for killing them might be discovered, I honestly doubt it's gonna be even close to being competitive with 9/9 runs and 80k Galli.
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Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
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By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-07-12 07:41:13
For a week or so, then strat gets figured out and its businesz as usual
While the strat for killing them might be discovered, I honestly doubt it's gonna be even close to being competitive with 9/9 runs and 80k Galli.
Well, since they are the only group pulling 80k at least the rest of the community wasn't impacted by that lol.
By SimonSes 2023-07-12 07:46:34
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello said: »Well, since they are the only group pulling 80k at least they rest of the community wasn't impacted by that lol.
Every strategy involving killing empowered bosses will for sure be slower than killing them without stage4, so it's still gonna be a net loss for every group regardless.
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By Asura.Iamaman 2023-07-12 07:58:17
I'm lost. Why would they make bosses HARDER after upgrading a weapon...? How does that logically make any sense besides just injecting forced difficulty into the event you're gonna do anyways? I have to assume the mechanics change because the drops change for your group? Seems weird though if not everyone is on stage 4.
They seem intent on making Sortie as long and drawn out as possible, what they don't seem to understand is that this is more discouraging to people as a goal especially with mechanics like this.
That being said, and I'm probably being naive here, I feel like this has to be a bug or something else is implemented wrong. It's a stretch even for them to do something that slows progression this much for the more dedicated players to the content. Like you said, they know people who took it this far are going to continue doing it anyway, so it makes no sense to load it up with more mechanics unless they are just trying to throttle the types of players who can finish.
It could also be a mechanic to discourage people from just doing a bunch of phase 4s and hoarding them (obv this doesn't work if you farm the galli on the front end) without upgrading. That's assuming it goes away with phase 5, which if it doesn't, could be a mechanic to force players into choosing one, but discouraging players who are willing to put that amount of time into the content for multiple weapons seems dumb too.
By SimonSes 2023-07-12 07:59:21
Btw my prediction for new meta is tank, 2xRNG, COR, BRD, RDM Gravity kiting outside of range, so it can't tp move. RNG/DRGs or with Anni to avoid taking hate. This could in theory work even for Aminon right?
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Fenrir.Svens
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By Fenrir.Svens 2023-07-12 08:00:06
Only thing left is to confirm if Mesosiderite drops exclusively from Aminon. Good luck to those who attempt finding a non-absorb tp strat, early progression days were cancer.
By Manque 2023-07-12 08:21:21
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »This but again they said they would behave differently to the weapons. Maybe like you said you gotta find the objective to make it not do it like sc or some ***. This is sortie after all with all these stupid objectives.
Something like complete all the objectives for a section before killing the boss maybe? There's a counter that shows your progress 1/8 etc.
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By Serjero 2023-07-12 08:21:33
Obviously need to trade your Stage 4 Prime Weapons to the Ebon Panels.
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Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
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By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-07-12 08:37:57
They fired, sorry "transfered", almost all of the developers. There's nothing left in the pipeline other than more master level trials. This content is supposed to last us for YEARS and that's how they designed it. Casuals come and go but they want the hardcores to keep paying that subscription fee because once they finish, they're going to bounce.
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
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By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-07-12 08:42:59
The worst part, though? Not everyone in our group even HAS a Stage 4 Prime Weapon! So, unless it only counts the person who enters the group (which, in that case...why?!), that means that if you upgrade to Stage 4, you're destroying the Gallimaufry potential of ANY group you join! Truly, this is one of the most severe case of punishing the player for upgrading an item I've ever seen.
What if you leave the stage 4 weapons in storage? Maybe having the ability to get the -drite is causing the increased level on the mobs?
At least you can get more gally for your other group members to get caught up while you figure out a new strategy.
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By Asura.Splendid 2023-07-12 09:23:37
Obviously need to trade your Stage 4 Prime Weapons to the Ebon Panels.
This comment takes me back. Wouldn’t that be crazy if there was another hidden bitzer that needed to be activated in each of the basements that you had to do something with before engaging with the bosses with Stage 4 weapons on your inventory. Heck, I almost wonder what would happen if you split the group into two and fought two bosses at once…
Setting the Stage…the stage. The stage. It must be set. Stage 4 weapons. What is Tribbles trying to tell us…the Ebon Panels!
Maybe everyone in the party needs to be on Stage 4?
All joking aside, thank you to Mischief’s team for providing the community with the info. It has not only been fascinating to see unfold but it will also help me adjust my own goals in Sortie.
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By Bahamut.Forutegsx 2023-07-12 09:29:46
I don't know about you guys but I'm in chiefs group and this updated difficulty is pretty eggsciting.
While yes they seem absurd at the moment it wasn't too long ago that if someone said you could do 9/9 nms in a single run most would have said that was impossible/absurd. I'm sure we'll figure something out, it would seem counter intuitive to instantly make a single character functionally useless to farm more than 20k galli in a single run solely because of owning an item in game.
Either that or we figure out something far more absurd and end up making 9/9 with all 4 basement mini nms in a single run possible. I'd like to think that whatever the case may be that it won't stop the us from continuing on, we're all just in shock on what seems sudden jump in difficulty. But even then we'll find a way, we always do :D
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-07-12 10:46:06
Bahamut.Forutegsx said: »I don't know about you guys but I'm in chiefs group and this updated difficulty is pretty eggsciting.
While yes they seem absurd at the moment it wasn't too long ago that if someone said you could do 9/9 nms in a single run most would have said that was impossible/absurd. I'm sure we'll figure something out, it would seem counter intuitive to instantly make a single character functionally useless to farm more than 20k galli in a single run solely because of owning an item in game.
Either that or we figure out something far more absurd and end up making 9/9 with all 4 basement mini nms in a single run possible. I'd like to think that whatever the case may be that it won't stop the us from continuing on, we're all just in shock on what seems sudden jump in difficulty. But even then we'll find a way, we always do :D I hope it's you gotta break ixion horn with the stage 4 prime!
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By SimonSes 2023-07-12 11:15:44
There is first response from JP who seems to finish Stage 4 too and they cant kill even 6 bosses now. The response, if I understand the translation is.. they unsubscribed :O
https://twitter.com/ff11377/status/1679147935366533122
EDIT: Most of the information in this thread is now outdated, as the EFGH boss enrages have been removed and Aminon is now a toggle. I'm leaving it up so people can see what happened, though.
So, I posted yesterday in the Sortie main thread about how some of the basement bosses had changed AI after acquiring a Stage 4 Prime Weapon. We went in again tonight to test the rest of them, and...well...this is bad. It's bad enough that I felt it justified its own thread so more people can see it.
TL;DR Do not upgrade your Stage 4 Prime Weapon until you are finished with acquiring Gallimaufry, or be prepared to tank the Galli rates for you and any group you join as soon as you get it.
First off, a few commonalities - despite the basement bosses getting harder, the rewards are completely unchanged. 10k Gallimaufry per boss, no guaranteed Case+1, no Mesosiderite (this is probably luck based). Second, actually equipping the Prime Weapon is irrelevant, the bosses are harder if anyone has the Stage 4 anywhere in their inventory. It might be the case that it only looks at the person entering Sortie to determine the AI (both times our party leader had a Stage 4), but that's unlikely. Finally, the base stats of each enemy seem unchanged, it's only their AI that gets altered.
Now, on to the specific bosses. We have recordings of all of the new enrage mechanics, in case anyone's skeptical about all of this. There may be other changes, but these are the ones we've seen. This is all mage strategy, too, so YMMV if you use melee strategy.
EDIT 7/15: Updated information on new mechanics based on more runs.
Dhartok - Uses Cesspool at somewhere between 50-65% HP. No other changes.
Gartell - Enters double hands mode at 65~66% and 30~33% HP, and stays in it for about 3 minutes each time. Bind works from a RDM fairly easily in this mode, but all damage gets tanked and his damage output skyrockets, so it's basically a forced staring contest eating your time while waiting. Gravity seems to work once, then resists badly. We don't know how to break double hands mode other than waiting.
Triboulex - Uses Setting the Stage at around 75% HP, and more times at lower %s. You can still avoid Setting the Stage going off by kiting him. There might be a Skillchain mechanic that also triggers it based off of previous runs, but it's consistently gone off at 75% HP so save yourself the trouble and just Gravity kite him.
Aita - Uses Vivisection at around 65~66% HP, and again at around 32~33% HP. These uses reset the 3 minute timer. There seems to be a mechanic to lower its damage based on repeatedly hitting him with the element he is weak to, but we don't fully understand it yet.
And last, and certainly worst...
Aminon - 10 seconds after using Bane of Tartarus, Aminon will now instantly use Incessant Void again, regardless of TP. After upgrading to Stage 4, the Absorb-TP strategy is IMPOSSIBLE. Anyone who tried to fight this thing pre-Absorb strategy knows that it's an absolute disaster of a fight, so Aminon basically doesn't exist for our group anymore.
I'm honestly speechless. The fact that the bosses are this much worse for bullshit reasons, there's seemingly no way to opt out of it after upgrading a weapon, there are no extra rewards beyond a worthless -drite we haven't even seen yet, and there was ZERO indication that this would happen prior to upgrading?! There wasn't even a chat message or any visual indication the bosses are buffed until our group got blindsided by Vivisection at 70%!
The worst part, though? Not everyone in our group even HAS a Stage 4 Prime Weapon! So, unless it only counts the person who enters the group (which, in that case...why?!), that means that if you upgrade to Stage 4, you're destroying the Gallimaufry potential of ANY group you join! Truly, this is one of the most severe case of punishing the player for upgrading an item I've ever seen.
That's why I'm making this a separate topic I guess - making sure as many people see this as possible. Our group was the first to upgrade to Stage 4, and we're paying the price for it now. Spread the word: either keep your Prime Weapons at Stage 3 (and thus be unable to use their WS outside of Sortie), or tank your Gallimaufry rate. What a fun choice that is......
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