Minimum Wage

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Minimum Wage
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 Sylph.Peldin
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By Sylph.Peldin 2015-03-17 13:50:51
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omg what a surprise...


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In a few weeks, Seattle’s new, highest in the country, $15 per hour minimum wage will go into effect. Like many liberal policies, it was passed by City Hall with the best of intentions. The only problem is, in the end, it may do more harm than good for many.

Private businesses, unlike government entities (which, in theory, can always raise taxes or borrow), must make more than they spend in order to pay the rent, make payroll, keep the lights on, pay their business taxes, and, heaven forbid, have some left over for the owners and investors who are taking the risk and putting in the long hours.

Earlier this month, Seattle Magazine asked, Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately?:

Last month—and particularly last week— Seattle foodies were downcast as the blows kept coming: Queen Anne’s Grub closed February 15. Pioneer Square’s Little Uncle shut down February 25. Shanik’s Meeru Dhalwala announced that it will close March 21. Renée Erickson’s Boat Street Café will shutter May 30 after 17 years with her at the helm…What the #*%&$* is going on? A variety of things, probably—and a good chance there is more change to come.
The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine, “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to say 42 percent, something has to give.

Restaurants can take actions to adjust, such as raise their prices, acquire cheaper ingredients, and cut their operating hours and labor force. However, all those actions generate reactions from the public which can still lead to lower revenues for the restaurant and, for some, the decision to close their doors.

The Washington Policy Center explains:

When prices rise consumers seek alternatives, a behavior economists call the “substitution effect,” which results in lower demand for the higher-priced product. In the case of restaurants, consumers have access to the ultimate substitution – they can stay home.
A spokesman for the Washington Restaurant Association told the Washington Policy Center, “Every [restaurant] operator I’m talking to is in panic mode, trying to figure out what the new world will look like.”

Seattle had a foretaste of the effect of the $15 minimum wage earlier this year when Prop 1, which made a $15 minimum wage for those working in parking garages and hotels near Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, took effect. A reporter asked a cleaning woman and a part-time banquet server, who work in a hotel near SEATAC, what they thought of the new law:

The cleaning woman responded, “It sounds good, but it’s not good,”

“Why?” I asked.

“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.

The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.

“What else?” I asked.

“I have to pay for parking,” she said.

I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.

“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.

The Seattle Times reported that a Clarion Hotel recently made the decision to close its full service restaurant (laying off 15 people) and let go of a night desk clerk and a maintenance worker. It also plans to raise its rates by 10 percent to offset increased labor costs.

As the April 1 deadline approaches, the residents of Seattle will have a front row seat to the effects of the $15 per hour minimum wage, but early indicators suggest it will not be as positive as City Hall intended.

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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-17 13:55:10
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Sylph.Peldin said: »
In a few weeks, Seattle’s new, highest in the country, $15 per hour minimum wage will go into effect.
So this is all just speculation still.

It's probably best not to try new things. Innovation always fails.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-17 13:56:38
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I don't think increasing the minimum wage is very innovative. Anyone could have thought of that.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-17 13:59:07
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Well....I told you so...

Clarification: I predicted this very outcome back when the bill was first passed.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Carbuncle.Rubican said: »
It is estimated that if a company like Walmart were to raise any employees (who are not already at or above the level of pay) pay to 13.86 an hour, it would cost the company 4.8 billion dollars. Do you know what that translates to for a company of that size? They would have to raise prices in their stores by 1.4% which would be between one and two cents per item in the store. 1 or 2 CENTS! not dollars, CENTS. and the same goes for any company that is large and takes in MILLIONS to BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR.
Here is the reason why your argument is flawed.

You are talking about a company that has multiple locations both inside Seattle and outside Seattle. You are implying that, in order to comply with this new law inside Seattle, Walmart would have to raise the price in all stores, both inside and outside of Seattle, by .01 for all of their products.

But if you really look at the larger picture, you would see that Walmart does not supply the entire workforce of Seattle. Most people who are employed in Seattle are employed in businesses located only in Seattle. So, they will need to raise their prices for products or services by greater than .01 because they do not have outside locations to spread the cost around. They are stuck with the bill of increased labor because of where they are located.

Their only solutions are:

1) Raise prices
2) Layoff people
3) Go out of business.

Which answer would you prefer?
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By fonewear 2015-03-17 13:59:58
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How long till 15 is not a living wage and 25 is reasonable !
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By fonewear 2015-03-17 14:00:47
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
I don't think increasing the minimum wage is very innovative. Anyone could have thought of that.

Well we spent 10 million dollars on a research program and we agree we need more money for research on min. wage !
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2015-03-17 14:02:01
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permanent disability only pays me around $7/hour if you break it down.
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By fonewear 2015-03-17 14:03:14
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I just see a college education being required to get that 15 dollar min. wage job !

You want to work at Starbucks just take this 2 year Starbucks coffee program !

(only $20,000) but you get free coffee !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:04:38
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
permanent disability only pays me around $7/hour if you break it down.

Less if you assume a 40-hour work week.

But it doesn't matter, we all know that's just a handout, you lazy layabout.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:05:48
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fonewear said: »
I just see a college education being required to get that 15 dollar min. wage job !

You want to work at Starbucks just take this 2 year Starbucks coffee program !

(only $20,000) but you get free coffee !

Coincidentally, a lot of barristas are college-educated.

Of course, you're going to get the parade of pragmatists saying that anything that isn't business, math, or science is worthless now...
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By fonewear 2015-03-17 14:07:30
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Yea but they didn't offer the Starbucks program when I was in school the *** !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:09:41
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Personally I think increasing the minimum wage is problematic and we need to find better ways of bringing people a living in general.

The problem isn't that these jobs pay too little, it's that these jobs shouldn't be counted on to earn a living at all.

But with too many people who have no skills and unskilled professions being unavailable to many for a variety of reasons...

Problematic. It's just problematic all over in so many facets.
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By fonewear 2015-03-17 14:10:54
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Don't worry when a robot replaces you they will have jobs to help repair and maintain that robot !
 Odin.Liela
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By Odin.Liela 2015-03-17 14:14:41
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I'm not trying to say whether or not an increase in minimum wage is good or bad, but I do have doubts about this article. Their main example is restaurants, but I mean, at least here in Idaho, restaurants don't follow minimum wage laws anyways. If the servers get tipped (which most of them do) then they get lower hourly wages.

A friend who works at the Cheesecake Factory here makes only $4 per hour, although our minimum wage is I think about $8 per hour. So while healthy debate is always (usually) good, I'm not really going to give a darn about this article until they have a FAR more concrete set of examples besides a handful of restaurants that don't count anyways and one (unnamed, uncredited) waitress at one airport.

As for the (unnamed, uncredited) part-time janitor, it seems strange. Maybe it's just different here (I'm not in Seattle by any means,) but in all the places I've worked, you have to be full-time to receive most of the benefits she claims to have lost. And even full-time employees of much higher standing rarely get free food at work (at least where I'm from. Even when I did work at a restaurant and made the food ourselves, we still didn't get it for free.) Again, I'm not in Seattle and I don't work at an airport, so maybe I'm being overly skeptical.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-17 14:24:08
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Odin.Liela said: »
I'm not trying to say whether or not an increase in minimum wage is good or bad, but I do have doubts about this article. Their main example is restaurants, but I mean, at least here in Idaho, restaurants don't follow minimum wage laws anyways. If the servers get tipped (which most of them do) then they get lower hourly wages.
Federal law mandates that if a server doesn't make enough in tips to cover the minimum wage per hour, the restaurant is required to pay the difference. That's why wait staff are required to report the tips to the owners so they can calculate the appropriate wage (and have backup in case of a payroll audit).

Odin.Liela said: »
A friend who works at the Cheesecake Factory here makes only $4 per hour, although our minimum wage is I think about $8 per hour. So while healthy debate is always (usually) good, I'm not really going to give a darn about this article until they have a FAR more concrete set of examples besides a handful of restaurants that don't count anyways and one (unnamed, uncredited) waitress at one airport.
That's the issue. It probably wasn't hard to find these examples in the first place. Anyone from Seattle can go to their downtown area and find all of the restaurants closing and going out of business, so it's not like the article in question is misrepresenting the facts.

Odin.Liela said: »
As for the (unnamed, uncredited) part-time janitor, it seems strange. Maybe it's just different here (I'm not in Seattle by any means,) but in all the places I've worked, you have to be full-time to receive most of the benefits she claims to have lost. And even full-time employees of much higher standing rarely get free food at work (at least where I'm from. Even when I did work at a restaurant and made the food ourselves, we still didn't get it for free.) Again, I'm not in Seattle and I don't work at an airport, so maybe I'm being overly skeptical.
It is not unheard of for employees, especially long-term employees, to receive these benefits in order to keep them from leaving. Especially chefs, as a good chef is hard to find.
 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2015-03-17 14:31:55
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Can we just replace waiters with robots already?

Its so annoying to have to tip people cause they have feelings that can get hurt.

Tipping culture in a service industry with inconsistent quality of service is annoying.

Sweden and Japan are my favorite places because tipping isn't expected and the service is consistently good.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:32:53
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Can we just replace waiters with robots already?

Its so annoying to have to tip people cause they have feelings that can get hurt.

Tipping culture in a service industry with inconsistent quality of service is annoying.

Sweden and Japan are my favorite places because tipping isn't expected and the service is consistently good.

Almost like paying and treating employees well in the first place is some kind of secret to having good employees.

That said, I'm all about minimizing wait staff's involvement at my table and getting rid of the entire idiotic tipping structure. Electronic ordering, they bring food and drinks, we all smile, day goes on.
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-17 14:34:23
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Anyone from Seattle can go to their downtown area and find all of the restaurants closing and going out of business, so it's not like the article in question is misrepresenting the facts.
Except the law hasn't gone into effect yet.

Someone in another thread made some big deal about the price of beef rising at the same time a Democrat was the governor of a major cattle ranching state. That's correlation, not causation, but it's such an easy little jibe/remark/observation to make.

Where I live, where the minimum wage is above federal minimum but well below $15/hour (and where restaurant servers who are any good at their jobs regularly make $20/hour, anyhow, so who the *** cares about them?), restaurants open and close all the time. I was up in the university district yesterday for the first time in about 2 months and saw that a major franchise burger restaurant had closed and has been replaced with a fast-service pizza restaurant. That kind of thing happens all the time: restaurants are not stable businesses and restauranteurs are frequently bad businesspeople (because they're usually cooks). It's really dubious to point at restaurants in any of this.
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-17 14:38:25
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There's a difference between service and subservience. Many people/restaurants in the US confuse the two.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:38:52
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
That kind of thing happens all the time: restaurants are not stable businesses and restauranteurs are frequently bad businesspeople (because they're usually cooks). It's really dubious to point at restaurants in any of this.

A big part of the reason I didn't go into restaurant owning-operating is my lack of desire to go to both culinary and business school.

In hindsight I still think maybe I should have, but hey. Water under the bridge.
 Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2015-03-17 14:38:53
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Can we just replace waiters with robots already?

Its so annoying to have to tip people cause they have feelings that can get hurt.

Sure, but only if they look like the Max Headroom-esque waiters in Back to the Future II.

 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 14:40:59
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-17 14:42:59
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Can we just replace waiters with robots already?

Its so annoying to have to tip people cause they have feelings that can get hurt.

Tipping culture in a service industry with inconsistent quality of service is annoying.

Sweden and Japan are my favorite places because tipping isn't expected and the service is consistently good.
That's because the service has to be consistently good to bring back repeat customers.

I've given royal ***to wait staff for expecting tips, even for their shitty and even shittier service, primarily because they are the face of the restaurant, and no matter how bad a meal is, that service and "making things right" attitude can be what makes or breaks the business from a public standpoint.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-17 14:50:45
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Anyone from Seattle can go to their downtown area and find all of the restaurants closing and going out of business, so it's not like the article in question is misrepresenting the facts.
Except the law hasn't gone into effect yet.

Someone in another thread made some big deal about the price of beef rising at the same time a Democrat was the governor of a major cattle ranching state. That's correlation, not causation, but it's such an easy little jibe/remark/observation to make.

Where I live, where the minimum wage is above federal minimum but well below $15/hour (and where restaurant servers who are any good at their jobs regularly make $20/hour, anyhow, so who the *** cares about them?), restaurants open and close all the time. I was up in the university district yesterday for the first time in about 2 months and saw that a major franchise burger restaurant had closed and has been replaced with a fast-service pizza restaurant. That kind of thing happens all the time: restaurants are not stable businesses and restauranteurs are frequently bad businesspeople (because they're usually cooks). It's really dubious to point at restaurants in any of this.
Most "restaraunteurs" are people who only have limited to 0 knowledge of how the business actually works, even a little. They think because they have money, and an idea, that it will generate a profit, or that because the Restaurant and Hospitality industry is worth hundreds of billions of dollars annually (might be a slight exaggeration), that they can be successful as well.

Employees are treated like ***, business owners find ways to pinch pennies instead of bringing in dollars, refuse to update their bars/restaurants, neglect to keep the business in business for profits, neglect cleaning schedules, among other things.

Restaurants are far more stable an entrepreneurship than just about any other business venture imaginable, because even bad restaurants manage to stay in business, even when losing money.

There is so much that goes in to running a restaurant successfully, that it can be overwhelming. From the location (can't bank on location alone), to how the face of the business is represented, etc. before you even walk in the door.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-03-17 14:51:24
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Tips. Otherwise known as spreading the burden of staff on customers.

Yeesh, just add a service charge. Oh wait, some places do and demand tip on top of that!

The idea that tip has anything to do with 'service' is laughable. The waitress could be *** drunk, spill everything and *** up your order and you'd still be expected to tip. It's a tax. It's expected. It has nothing to do with quality.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2015-03-17 14:52:22
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Tips. Otherwise known as spreading the burden of staff on customers.

Yeesh, just add a service charge. Oh wait, some places do and demand tip on top of that!

The idea that tip has anything to do with 'service' is laughable. The waitress could be *** drunk, spill everything and *** up your order and you'd still be expected to tip. It's a tax. It's expected. It has nothing to do with quality.
I don't tip at any establishment where gratuity/service charge is forced.


The few times they've said something, I point to the receipt where they've already been paid, lol.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-17 14:54:13
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In any establishment where a tip is expected, I quote unto them the wise adages of Confucious.

Then I write a tip telling them they can expect a tip when the food and service matches what I paid for the meal.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-03-17 14:56:23
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I'll tip, but I demand that if the waiter/ess is rude they owe me a counter-tip!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-17 14:58:04
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Except the law hasn't gone into effect yet.
Except that it has. Page 8, Line 6 is where you want to go.

Mind you, these events are happening while the minimum wage is at $11/hr. So, do you think it will stop here, or get worse next year when it's at $13/hr?

Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Where I live, where the minimum wage is above federal minimum but well below $15/hour (and where restaurant servers who are any good at their jobs regularly make $20/hour, anyhow, so who the *** cares about them?), restaurants open and close all the time. I was up in the university district yesterday for the first time in about 2 months and saw that a major franchise burger restaurant had closed and has been replaced with a fast-service pizza restaurant. That kind of thing happens all the time: restaurants are not stable businesses and restauranteurs are frequently bad businesspeople (because they're usually cooks). It's really dubious to point at restaurants in any of this.
Right, established names are going off the map because of bad decisions, like opening for business 17+ years ago...
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-17 15:01:07
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So many factors go into tipping for me.

For one, I nearly always tip delivery drivers well because I live in an out-of-the-way location and their time getting food to me is largely dependant upon traffic lights lining up; that they come out to my place at all justifies a tip just for the time it takes.

As for restaurant staff, their actual service, timeliness, keeping drinks filled, being polite, time of day, the ratio of customers-to-servers, and my own regularity at an establishment all figure in.
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