BLU In Delve

Not saying a parse is ever going to more useful than perhaps determining stats vs your target IE levels of evasion etc merely pointing out that relying on a spreadsheet as infallible and rejecting the idea they can be wrong is stupid.

This entire thread should be evidence that people do believe Spreadsheets are infallible and yet despite the fact proof has been provided that the one in question is flawed people still cling to them.

I never once said a parse means anything, I think you'll find I said Spreadsheets can only provided a guideline and everyone should keep this in mind.

I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing about now as I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm merely stating that you shouldn't believe everything something tells you based on someone elses data and maths.

That wasn't the point of the statement.

The point was you shouldn't take it as Gospel and infallible, and that just 1 error means there is potential for more errors, whether this affects everyone equally is debatable (TP calculations etc may not be accurate for all 1 handers etc etc, fSTR values on RNG spreadsheets were wrong a while back if memory serves).

This single error by no means (which again I re-iterate) means it is entirely wrong, it simply means they are not always right.

Please note that I'm responding to the lot of you simultaneously. If something feels out of place with regard to your position, it's probably not directed at you

Thanks for clarifying that.

I agree parse data could be skill / better scripting/ faster internet and is completely useless.

If I had to say something that I probably mean to impose upon you all, it's that anyone who thinks a spreadsheet(or any type of forecast) is to be taken literally is probably too far gone to waste argumentation on. Ditto for anyone who thinks parses are good for anything other than a post hoc game of Spot-the-Terrible

And again, spreadsheets aren't going anywhere(nor should they), so withholding corrections on the basis of, "I don't use them" is not in your best interests, and again, bordering on sociopathy

If someone doesn't use them, how would you suppose they would know that the spreadsheets has the error, does that statement not seem counter intuitive and your assumption that they should impart every piece of knowledge about game mechanics to "someone" just in case they missed something off a data sheet that might be useful, that again they wouldn't know is missing somewhat laughable?

Furthermore comparing "withholding" information to sociopathy is the incorrect use of the word, so please stop throwing it around like a buzzword.

Just in case people wonder why I mention the "Socitpathy" issue.


Antisocial attitudes are 1 sympton of sociopathy and should not be used as the only sympton to label someone as a Sociopath, doing so is incorrect, derogatory and diminishing the actual personality disorder by using it so flippantly about someone with what you described as a "bad attitude" which could actually be used against yourself when you factor in you assumed he should know something is broken or missing data when he has no access to it to know this.

Kaparu has always been a sanctimonious ***, just ignore him and continue the discussion.

I'm not particularly bothered if someone has high opinions of themselves, I am however bothered about the incorrect usage of a word as an insult when it's blatantly incorrect and only portrays the users as short sighted and incorrect.

He seems more intelligent than this and I would hope he would stop using it repeatedly because it is, in all honesty, bordering on the lines of insulting someone by "out right suggesting" that they are a Sociopath, someone with a serious medical and personality disorder simply based on a limited perspective and a disagreement in position which he terms "a Bad attitude".

however with that said ~ w.e

Apparently my wife saw this chat open after I went to bed <<, but she's right.

Also I'm laughing about, "You wont fix a tool I use for my video game , you are a sociopath!" Hopefully that's not how you get your way with everything in life.

i read it as him saying

"you don't actually know anything inaccurate in the spreadsheets"

and indirectly calling you out, not actually being upset you didn't file a bug report

he's right though, any bugs get fixed quickly so calling it inaccurate and saying your paper is better is a bit silly

So first its, you cant do that much damage on COR, despite formula showing yeah you can. Now its, "no you dont actually know anything inaccurate in the spreadsheets". Ok w/e, continue to believe whatever you wish. I'm wasting my time apparently.

poidh Doc!

Ok lets get back to basic scientific method because this whole thing is getting silly.

Spreadsheets are Theory based on collected data from experimentation, since exact formulas are not really known.

Parses are real world experiments to test out theory, I.E This armor set or party setup will perform to X degree.

They each have their place, one provides empirical data for constructing theory (Parse) the other utilizes collected data to make a theory. (SpreadSheet)

Both theory and Expermiment are only as good as the scientist formulating them and the quality of the collected data.

For anyone to say a parse is useless because XYZ BAD is doing the parsing wrong is nonsense, simply means better controls need to be in place.

Variance due to skill, internet, etc are all accountable for in spreadsheets, it is called statistics.

With that said unless a spreadsheet is dynamic AND Robust in enterable variables and proven formulas it will fail to do anything more then make a weak forcast (Theory), The current state of spreadsheets is this.

Poor controls on parses lead to poor data, But if a person conducts 25 incursions runs killing the exact same Bosses with the same PT setup and same players They will get a more accurate data pool which would be far more reliable than a Spreadsheet. However think of the possible combinations its mind boggling, thus weak parse data.

There is nothing wrong with either tool, However there is a great deal wrong with the idea either is infallible, and also the idea neither should be taken into account. If we followed that logic then all anyone would be left with is a "Gut feel" approach.

Side note: The best tool for collecting min/max data is in fact already implemented. Timers with out question provide the best possible data to determine if XYZ party setup is better. Also player quality. The problem however is that it does not allow for specific individual review.

Timer = parse in its most basic form.

(Exaggerated scenario) Delve as an easy example.

6x WHM run a Tojil, complete it in 10 mins flat lather rinse repeat to the tune of 20 times.

No matter what anyone else does they never break that record.

Absent obvious exploits it can be stated empirically that 6xWHM = best setup for Tojil. This is further cemented whn other players are then able to repeat said results using their own equally geared 6xWHM party setups.

This is all exaggerated to make a point

Simply put, TEST SH*T OUT ffs, or don't complain when someone else's work does not fit to your desires. Also don't preach like you are God if you have not bothered to do any of the above work.

Doing 70k leaden in skirmish on a mob with magic dmg taken+ mechanic isn't the same as doing 120k on yorcia NM in a vid.

Not sure if MDB- affects dark skillchain, if it does it's actually 60k+ leaden+ 140k darkness....double darkness dmg.


It's not really anyone's fault about the magic dmg formula though. The fact that MDB can reach 0.5 isn't written on bg-wiki/JP wiki/most of the FFXI info site, so most ppl would assume that 1 is the lowest we can get. Unless you somehow dig that testing on BG page out of nowhere.

The real question is, WILL SE BAN MY ACCOUNT IF I ABUSE THIS.

I guess since this is a blue Mage forum, and we have access to B.typhoon and magic spells and ws, I made the mistake of thinking this was common knowledge (that mdb goes below the base

I can't speak for others, but I've been using Acumen/Malaise for a pretty long time for lolnukes and Flash Nova on GEO.

Also, if MDB floored at 1.0, all those MDB- debuffs from Dvergrs (aka. chairmen) wouldn't be that harmful. However, I find it pretty amusing how people are being "thrashed" by not knowing that fact.

It's a nice thing to have on Friday.

It is common knowledge though, and people who say it isn't well then why are lots of people doing this across many servers >.> I know an entire event LS do this, a few statics on Cerberus and lot in Skirmish style events...

Trashing people for it is meh, but when it's a response to people trashing the people who actually know this mechanic calling them wrong / liars until its Put in front of them that their knowledge of the game is limited and flawed, people occasionally need a *** Slap to the face to realise "You Suck" or "You don't know everything so shut the *** up and Pipe Down".

I assumed it would be obvious I wasn't using the DSM-5 definition of the word, but if my careless colloquialism upset any actual sociopaths, I genuinely apologize.

That has no barring on my central argument, though.

Also- ***, yes. I try to catch myself when I'm being unnecessarily rude on the interwebz

Sanctimonious? Nah brah, nah

So you concede the fact that he had no Obligation, nor an perceived reason to inform people that a tool other people use, that he does not and therefore did not know was broken or missing data, was broken?

I don't think anyone really cares about Parsed Data vs Data formulated in a vacuum as they both have their place and neither should be depended upon holy for the context they are currently used in and in their current model form being grossly incomplete to accommodate inconstant buffs, party set ups, Damage taken and time spent not in x set, to give you an actual idea whats someone "Non-Theoretical Damage" will be, because we can assume "if I'm never hit my DPS is this" but factoring in the level of your opponent, it's constant debuffs, latency effects etc are not quantified and the level of work required to do so, is untheaseable at this time to make spreadsheet analyses accurate enough to be depended upon soley, errors aside, the data is incomplete and missing a field.

If all this information was collected, you could get a rather good "idea" what your damage should/would be with some level of certainty, however that's potential and not actual.

Unless the argument is general spreadsheets vs sample data then that's a stupid argument as the spreadsheet is only as good as the creator and has potential to be "perfect", I inferred that as this is FFXI-AH Forum, we were making comments regarding the practical usefulness of the current spreadsheets for this game which is based on incomplete data, theoretical Maths not confirmed if this is all 100% accurate as we don't have access to the base code from SE and the complete lack of Target data and an estimated time spent in Hybrid / PDT sets as a result of damage taken affecting your "potential" performance.

BT doesn't really make a game changing difference with MDB-10 though, it makes a huge difference at -50.

You can tell whether it's well known or not by the pt setup of JP/NA PUG.

And calling someone, well rather inferring they are verging on being a Sociopath isn't what you contextualize as Rude?

Think you might want to re-examine that.

I did say try

Touche

Right, but I guess I use bt at the start of any fight I plan on dealing magic damage I figured others did too, and when geo came out , I naturally looked through its abilities to augment what I was already doing.

go Home Doc, your wife's posts are way funnier.