Russia And Ukraine

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Russia and Ukraine
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-03-20 08:27:47
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MOSCOW (Reuters) - The legal process required to make Crimea part of Russia will be completed this week, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday.

President Vladimir Putin signed a treaty to bring the Ukrainian region into Russia on Tuesday and the lower house of parliament was expected to ratify it later on Thursday. The upper house will follow suit on Friday.

"Practical steps are being taken to implement the agreements on the entry of Crimea and (the Crimean port city of) Sevastopol into Russia," Itar-Tass news agency quoted Lavrov as saying. "The legal process will be completed this week."

Russia's moves to annex the Black Sea peninsula, which has a narrow ethnic Russian minority, has turned a confrontation with Europe and the United States into the biggest crisis in East-West relations since the Cold War.

Lavrov blamed the West in a veiled reference to he United States, saying Western nations were trying to "preserve their global leadership and display their exceptionalism rather than striving to be guided by international law."

"The events in Ukraine are a reflection of these approaches," Lavrov said, adding that Moscow would continue to use "political, diplomatic and legal methods" to protect Russians abroad.

"We will insist that countries in which our compatriots have found themselves fully respect their rights and freedoms," he said. Russia accuses the new pro-Western authorities in Kiev of endangering Russian-speakers in eastern Ukraine.

SWIFT MOVES ON INTEGRATION

In addition to ratifying the treaty annexing Crimea, Russia's lower house, the State Duma, plans to adopt legislation required to make Crimea and Sevastopol - which is home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet - regions of Russia.

Both chambers are loyal to Putin and is doing his bidding over Crimea.

The treaty goes into force once ratified and stipulates that Crimea will be fully integrated into Russia after a transition period ending on January 1.

Russia has begun issuing Russian passports to Crimeans, Interfax quoted Russia's immigration agency chief, Konstantin Romodanovsky, as saying.

Crimean voters overwhelmingly backed joining Russia in a referendum on Sunday but the West says the vote was illegal.

The United States and Europe have imposed sanctions on officials and lawmakers accused of involvement in the annexation, partially suspended military and trade ties, and threatened more punitive measures.

Russian officials are moving swiftly to integrate the region and bolster an economy that has been dependent on Kiev for 85 percent of its electricity, 90 percent of its drinking water and some of its food supplies.

Finance Minister Anton Siluanov has said Russia will cover Crimea's estimated 55 billion ruble ($1.53 billion) budget deficit with funds from the federal budget.

Energy Minister Alexander Novak said Russia would also ensure Crimea has a constant power supply by providing back-up sources and controlling fuel reserves.

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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-03-20 08:28:28
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Obama Rules Out 'Military Excursion' in Ukraine
By Carrie Dann

President Barack Obama on Thursday ruled out a "military excursion" by the United States in Ukraine, saying that engaging Russia militarily "would not be appropriate."

"We are not going to be getting into a military excursion in Ukraine," he said in an interview with KNSD in San Diego. "What we are going to do is mobilize all of our diplomatic resources to make sure that we've got a strong international coalition that sends a clear message, which is that Ukraine should decide their destiny."

"There is a better path, but I think even the Ukrainians would acknowledge that for us to engage Russia militarily would not be appropriate and would not be good for Ukraine either," he added.

In a separate interview with KSDK in St. Louis, Obama reiterated that a military option is not on the table but that the United States and its allies are prepared to take "even more disruptive economic actions."

"Obviously, we do not need to trigger an actual war with Russia," he said. "The Ukrainians don't want that. Nobody would want that."

Obama granted interviews to six local television stations on Wednesday.

In the interview with KNSD, the president insisted that Russian President Vladimir Putin "acted out of weakness, not out of strength," saying that Putin is "not comfortable" with countries loosening their ties to the Kremlin in favor of more freedom to deal with the West.

"His strategic decisions are no way based on whether he thought that we might go to war over this," he added. "I think there’s a clear understanding that when it comes to our core interests or our NATO allies we can protect ourselves."

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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-20 08:29:53
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so, the red line that the White House has issued will not be backed if Putin crosses it.

This will be like Syria all over again.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-03-20 08:42:15
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I doubt anything else will happen. Nobody is going to take up arms. Putin got what he wanted and sucks to be Ukraine.
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 Asura.Railbender
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By Asura.Railbender 2014-03-20 08:49:52
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 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-03-20 09:18:52
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For the second time in as many times, ladies and gentlemen, I feel the need to offer you General Jack D. Ripper.

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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-20 09:25:07
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Man, I love that movie. Kubricks BEST!

On topic: I guess the rest of the world will have to think twice when they must consider trusting the US and NATO to protect their sovereignty.

Man I miss the good old days of Reagan. Hell at this point I'd settle for Clinton.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-03-20 09:34:31
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But what should they do? Making a war would be insane and even though the procedure was very suspicious, this happened with a referendum. Other than give sanctions, what can they do?
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-20 09:41:58
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
But what should they do? Making a war would be insane and even though the procedure was very suspicious, this happened with a referendum. Other than give sanctions, what can they do?

Haven't we recognized Ukraine as a sovereign state? Doesn't their participation in NATO effectively mean NATO protects their sovereignty? Doesn't Russia threaten that sovereignty by annexing Crimea against the will of the rest of Ukraine?
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-03-20 10:10:41
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technically chrimea doesn't have the right to ceceed under the Ukrainian constitution, but they are not a member of NATO, only assured sovereignty under a disarmament agreement. what they did is illegal, the question is: who wants to *** with them?
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-03-20 10:12:27
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I dunno, I think any region should have the right to leave a country they don't want to be part of(at their own risk).
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-03-20 10:13:19
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So what happens when Russia decides to expand further and take another country? Will NATO stand back and let them do so again just because open war with the likes of Russia would be too risky?

This is starting to sound like the buildup to WW2 all over again.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-20 10:24:14
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Crimea is a different kind of administrative area within Ukraine. Kind of like Hong Kong is to China. It is still part of Ukraine, it does not have the legal recourse to hold a referendum and allow itself to be annexed into Russia.That doesn't mean they don't have the natural right to, but they certainly don't have the legal right to.

Ukraine has sorta been attacked, under agreement, isn't NATO sorta obligated to respond?
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-03-20 10:33:28
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the administration of chrimea isn't recognized by kiev, they don't have the right to govern themselves under the articles of the Ukrainian constitution, but that is beside the point, anyway. and yes, the speech putin gave at the kremlin a few days ago has been interpreted as very similar to the one given by hitler when he annexed Austria. i don't think he's stupid enough to invade an EU or NATO ally, but the western world will likely continue to throw sanctions and words at him as he annexes most of the former Soviet union.
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 Bismarck.Aselin
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By Bismarck.Aselin 2014-03-20 10:38:08
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You can also watch this from Crimea's newest Attorney General, Natalya Poklonskaya.

YouTube Video Placeholder


(Enable CC, closed caption, opened on Youtube to see the English translations.)

She says, as she reads Ukraine's constitution, to the effect that the people of Ukraine, including those in Crimea, are the source of political power in that country. And, they can use that power and cannot be usurped by any state or any official.

In other words, if this was in the US whereby the government is "of the People, by the People, and for the People," though not necessarily stated in the Constitution, but if it were, the people of the US can effectively bring upon change to the government and the country. Such power, then, cannot be usurped or held back by any State or government official because the Constitution is empowering the people to do such a thing.

That is basically what is being interpreted by the Crimeans under the Ukranian constitution.

(Can you just imagine what would happen if Americans were given such power beyond protest and right to assembly? Though, technically, we do have such power but surprisingly no American or group of Americans has used the Second Amendment and the Freedom of Assembly to force change against our own government. Just not yet, however.)

Also, do note, Natalya has gotten quite popular since being revealed as the newest attorney general of Crimea.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-20 10:38:42
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Wow she's hot!
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 Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2014-03-20 11:03:26
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While a real referendum might would have still been pro Russia, this one was not fair and I believe not legal:
fairness issues:
- 2 pro Ukraine TV channels were shut down
- election material was handed out together with only pro-russian material
- Armed pro Russian forces at the polling station
- only the options of going to russia now or going to russia via a middle-step
legal issues:
-there were more votes than eligible voters, for example Sevastopol 123%

Personally I think all 3 sides made mistakes.
The one of the EU was that they accepted the interim government so quickly (2 days) after signing an agreement of Ukraine government and opposition on how to solve the first crisis. Also Svoboda being part of the government with 3 ministers is unacceptable and its role during the maidan was played down by the media in Germany (not sure if this goes for other countries as well, could someone give a feedback on that?).

Ukraine interim government mistake was to focus only on the western Ukraine and made politics against a large population in the east, like the innitiative to forbid the russian language.

At the moment all sides are back at the old cold war stance, opposing each other, unable to back down. It will most likely take some time before a side can soften up to allow for face-saving way for both sides. West cannot allow this strategy of Putin to go unanswered as it follows the same logic of Hitlers early international actions and Putin build up a very strong propaganda in Russia that forces him to continue.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is the start for the fight over the arctic borders. The Crimea would be a good price to pay for the west for a favourable dividing of the north pole region. Too bad for the Ukraine though if that will be the case.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-03-20 11:24:57
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
But what should they do? Making a war would be insane and even though the procedure was very suspicious, this happened with a referendum. Other than give sanctions, what can they do?
Which "they"? The EU? They buy a LOT of hydrocarbons from Russia. Also the "referendum" was a joke. There was no maintain the status quo option on it. Just join Russia and break away from Ukraine options.

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Haven't we recognized Ukraine as a sovereign state? Doesn't their participation in NATO effectively mean NATO protects their sovereignty? Doesn't Russia threaten that sovereignty by annexing Crimea against the will of the rest of Ukraine?
Yes we have. They aren't part of NATO. It goes well beyond a threat. What solution(s) can you think of?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-03-20 11:41:20
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Ukraine was not NATO, though it might have been which forced Putin/Russia's hand to make a power play here. When a NATO ally gets invaded, ***gets real and Russia knows that. The Baltics are in NATO so those are offlimits. At best Putin and co. are trying to bring the former Soviet states back into the fold before they get too cozy with the West.

What Russia did was illegal and damages their reputation with the West but looking at it from the Putin administrations POV what do they have to gain by playing nice with the West? An encroaching NATO on their front porch and further declining power? Does not a good superpower make and we all know Mother Russia wants to be best Russia.

Sanctions seem like a joke but short of going back to hostile with Russia once more there aren't many options. Though that dig at the US on Iraq was just for bluster but it isn't like the US gives a *** about international law when our interests are in flux.

Kinda livid when another nation pulls that type of stunt huh?
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-03-20 14:22:59
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Ukraine was not NATO, though it might have been which forced Putin/Russia's hand to make a power play here. When a NATO ally gets invaded, ***gets real and Russia knows that. The Baltics are in NATO so those are offlimits. At best Putin and co. are trying to bring the former Soviet states back into the fold before they get too cozy with the West.


Ukraine joining NATO has been on the backburner since 2009, they pushed for it in 2008 but it was met with resistance from the Germans and its been on ice ever since. There has been no sign of that movement picking up at all, and a revolution certainly killed any chances. This whole thing has been about the Crimean ports and how paranoid Russia is about losing them.

Quote:
What Russia did was illegal and damages their reputation with the West but looking at it from the Putin administrations POV what do they have to gain by playing nice with the West? An encroaching NATO on their front porch and further declining power? Does not a good superpower make and we all know Mother Russia wants to be best Russia.


Well they just lost billions of dollars in a few weeks. They started something they couldn't pay for and yet they will be paying anyway. Furthermore they succeeded in pushing the Ukraine and all of its money away from them right into the hands of the West, but hey they "have" Crimea right? Worth it! Too bad Crimea doesn't have anything to contribute to the Russian economy.

Quote:
Sanctions seem like a joke but short of going back to hostile with Russia once more there aren't many options. Though that dig at the US on Iraq was just for bluster but it isn't like the US gives a *** about international law when our interests are in flux.

Kinda livid when another nation pulls that type of stunt huh?

Sanctions are not a joke, they crippled Iran and North Korea and they are in the process of crippling Russia. They can make all of the jokes they want because thats what Russians do, but they are scared of the sanctions. See you in 20 years Russia, maybe then you can start trying to shake the title of former superpower.
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 Bismarck.Aselin
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By Bismarck.Aselin 2014-03-20 17:15:28
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In "ELI5" ("explain like I'm 5 [years old]) terms, this is how it all looks like: (To me, anyway.)

Russia: "This was ours to begin with! What's mine is mine."
- Enters Ukraine without resistance, and acts like that overly possessive sibling who thinks everything belongs to him/her.
- Influences and intimidates the voting of Crimea's secession.

Crimea: "We believe this is our legal right, the Ukraine constitution says so."
- Votes for secession because they had guns pointed at them.
- Believes it's legal because of the Ukrainian constitution, and considers the recent events in Ukraine (e.g.- the violent deadly protests) to be "anti-constitutional."

USA: "Russia has no right to take Crimea like that, but we won't risk getting into war with them either. I'm sorry Ukraine, you're on your own."
- Imposes strict economic sanctions on Russia instead. Think of what happened to Iran happening to Russia now. Iran's imports and exports, and economy tanked after sanctions were imposed on them.
- Will only get involved if and only if Russia takes military action against Ukraine (i.e.- fires a tank shell at Ukraine's military, etc.); but if it's the other way around, we'll consider it an internal conflict and not get involved ourselves.

Europe (EU): "We're not touching this with a 10-foot pole, not even the Eiffel Tower."
- EU sees too many risks getting in-between Ukraine and Russia.
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 Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2014-03-20 17:35:14
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the sanctions against russia aren't that much. they targeted 21? members of the russian parliament and they responded by passing a measure condemning the sanctions and daring the us to impose sanctions on all 541? members. 81 of them left before the vote, but they aren't scared or concerned.
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By Bismarck.Aselin 2014-03-20 17:40:48
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Ragnarok.Hevans said: »
the sanctions against russia aren't that much. they targeted 21? members of the russian parliament and they responded by passing a measure condemning the sanctions and daring the us to impose sanctions on all 541? members. 81 of them left before the vote, but they aren't scared or concerned.
Yeah, I just noticed that.

If anything, the one thing that'll hurt them is Russia's oil industry, but who'd be silly enough to sanction that?
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2014-03-20 18:51:54
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well at one point they said that if we removed sanctions on buying iranian oil, it would lower gas prices by 10% around the world and save billions of dollars. however, it stands to reason that american and european oil companies want higher gas prices to continue feeding their record high profits. if less gas comes out of russia, something else will fill up (hurrhurr) the void. eastern europe and asia will probably end up footing the bill for the sanctions as slightly higher russian oil and natural gas will still be cheaper and easier to get than other options.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-03-21 07:44:30
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You sanction us? In Mother Russia, we sanction you!

Of course, the list of Americans sanction include those who could damage the integrity of Russia.

So naturally, Obama is not on the list...
By volkom 2014-03-21 08:24:55
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venice wants to secede from italy
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-03-21 08:33:50
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volkom said: »
venice wants to secede from italy
It's been like that for decades. There's a very radical right party in that region that wants all of northern Italy to be a separate nation. This project however has died over the past years cause everyone realized it was bs, though the party still exists, has representatives and in the parliament, and is always making demented claims.
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2014-03-21 08:35:39
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wasn't it someone from that group that shot the pope in the 80's?
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