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DRG In Delve/Plasm Farm?
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4189
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-06-11 16:42:18
Enjoy your spreadsheets, I've got better things to do than argue with your 100% perfect theory. Clearly there is no argument possible, because your spreadsheets are never going to be wrong and there will never be any degree of human error.
If the key to winning an argument is to ignore all other points, than you have won. Congratulations.
Please understand that spreadsheets aren't perfect and many things they are based on are estimations but they are far more realistic at describing DD potential than parses.
In any event, too many variables can happen. Someone can die, someone can miss a buff or not get haste for a bit or really any number of issues that skew the data.
Parses show WHAT happened. In that exact situation. That one time.
Spreadsheets show what CAN happen and average the damage so that they can be compared logically and mathematically.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 60
By Asura.Chanceikin 2013-06-11 16:46:19
If you're right, than I'm the greatest DRG alive. If I should be doing 34% behind a bereaver DRK and am doing 8% behind them.
Then bow down before your Dragoon Messiah.. lol.
Last post, don't respond to it. Continue on with your math party/grammar jamboree.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 16:50:45
kbye
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 16:53:14
You've piqued my curiosity, Martel. I'll definitely look into that later for you!
By krish 2013-06-11 17:02:43
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Please understand that spreadsheets aren't perfect and many things they are based on are estimations but they are far more realistic at describing DD potential than parses.
In any event, too many variables can happen. Someone can die, someone can miss a buff or not get haste for a bit or really any number of issues that skew the data.
Parses show WHAT happened. In that exact situation. That one time.
Spreadsheets show what CAN happen and average the damage so that they can be compared logically and mathematically.
At the same time, the spreadsheets will never ever ever show what happened or will happen. They can be good for theoretical scenarios but, like you said, they only describe potential. They are useful for addressing questions like should I use this piece of gear over that one without having to do hundreds to thousands of parses.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 17:04:41
You wouldn't use parses to determine which piece of equipment is preferable, you'd use algebra
By krish 2013-06-11 17:07:33
You wouldn't use parses to determine which piece of equipment is preferable, you'd use algebra
I'd actually use probability theory since it is a stochastic system being modeled.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 17:09:13
That would work great in tandem with a semantics model.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4189
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-06-11 17:18:12
If you do enough parses, the sample size is large enough that you could technically make estimations on what is better since a larger sample size would do well to hide the minor variations in chance. But yeah... that's hundreds to thousands PER gear change. It'd be a terribad way to do things.
That isn't to say that parsing won't show larger changes you make. But the fact that parses will show changes on day to day events with no change in strat, players or gear should explain the problem of parsing to most people.
Particularly since many who use parses only focus on the end result. The % of total damage dealt rather than all the little factors that lead up to that result.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 17:24:13
Save your breath; They understand perfectly well.
The goal here is to spat over terminology, nothing more.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4189
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-06-11 17:27:10
I know, I'm mostly just saying because I think the later half of what I explained is why people(and some in this thread) have such a problem and arguments about spreadsheets/parsing. I guess I'm hoping some of them may read that and understand the issues with both and how to apply them properly...
By krish 2013-06-11 17:28:20
Save your breath; They understand perfectly well.
The goal here is to spat over terminology, nothing more.
Just like you understand that you're only focusing on the end result. The total damage dealt rather than all the little factors that lead up to that result.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 17:34:58
Please explain how this changes the results of a simulation, or kindly stop bumping the thread with semantic nonsense
Asura.Fiv
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 356
By Asura.Fiv 2013-06-11 17:37:58
My Upukirex beats everyone when i can focus for 45 minutes straight in regular plasm farm, but to be fair, geist wall loves last resort. Im sure if more people had Senbaak Nagan it wouldn't even be a contest, and even with bereaver for tojil plasm farms DRK likely wins, but DRG gets to come for angon anyway. Most importantly though, DRG is fun to play, and you can have both jobs geared pretty easily.
I love DPS spreadsheets, but you spend like 25 minutes of a plasm farm just standing around, and that starts to work in DRGs favor since jumps are basically always up when mobs are pulled, and i don't think you can account for that in the spreadsheets, nor the geist wall thing.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 17:42:58
[+]
By krish 2013-06-11 18:18:40
Please explain how this changes the results of a simulation, or kindly stop bumping the thread with semantic nonsense
You're the one talking semantic nonsense. There is no simulation being discussed here. Unless you want to think of FFXI itself as a simulation but that would nonsense. The spreadsheets are not a simulation. A parse is not a simulation. The spreadsheets are a vastly simplified models of what's going on. A parse is a single measurement of what happened.
The spreadsheets are useful because they are easy to use and give some kind of answer even though that answer do not reflect a complex and messy system. They are good for making simple decisions when you're willing to ignore the myriad of things that they don't take into account.
A parse does represent one instance of reality in all its messiness. On the downside, they are not really useful for making decisions unless it's a very simple case or you're winning to do tons and tons of parsing.
They are both useful tools but neither is definitive. What I find sad is that the modern reliance on both parsing and spreadsheets ignores the team aspect of FFXI (see discussion on Haste Samba or Angon or Dia3 or Bravura... or ask why there is no meaningful damage spreadsheet for support jobs). It is the team aspect of the game which has kept me playing.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-06-11 18:32:19
They are good for making simple decisions when you're willing to ignore the myriad of things that they don't take into account that impact all participants in virtually the same way.
Take your misapprehensions about how spreadsheets work somewhere else. You're not furthering the discussion in any way, as you still have yet to explain how this changes the result.
And in the future, please be wrong in fewer words.
Ragnarok.Eriina
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 294
By Ragnarok.Eriina 2013-06-11 18:37:43
Are they used?
Thinking of getting the Ophidian Trident but want to know if DRG have any place in adoulins content?
Any other DRGs have info? ^^
If the question is simply the bolder portion, then the simple answer is: yes, they are used. Most of the time, shout leaders for delve plasma farms tend to take members based on the order the /tells come in. That's it.
You may occasionally find a leader that wants to stack the odds in their favor as far as possible and refuse your /tell to hold out for a war or drk. In my experience, this is rare.
The bigger blockade to enjoying delve as drg is that there are often a maximum of 6 DD slots open and these fill up the fastest, as there are so many jobs that can fill those slots.
I've had no trouble getting into shouts (that actually need a DD) as a DRG and I've seen other DRG getting in as well. However, I tired of the mad dash to be in the first 2~3 /tells for those coveted DD spots, and leveled COR so I can join more groups whenever I feel like it.
By krish 2013-06-11 18:45:03
And in the future, please be wrong in fewer words.
In the future, I will look to you for advice on that.. if little else.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-06-11 18:48:01
The entirety of FFXI's combat system is incredibly simple to replicate using basic algebra. Those of us who bother taking the time to code a program to do that call those programs simulations, as they're simulating the game to the tiniest detail, even though most of those details are irrelevant to actual comparisons. For comparing jobs to each other, pieces of gear, entire gearsets, changes in conditions, etc., a true simulation is unparalleled for accuracy; accounting for human/operator error is impossible and can not be blamed on the simulation or its creator, and the results remain the same regardless. These types of mathematics produce absolute answers, you can not question or argue against a number that is hard coded into the game.
Spreadsheets do the exact same thing in a more compact form at the expense of some features in most cases. Their relevancy remains the same, however: you can not argue against cold, hard mathematical facts just on the basis of feels or because of human error. If X job is mathematically superior to Y job, the method used to represent that in numbers does not change the validity of the conclusion. Spreadsheets use the exact same math as simulations, they just don't always have the ability (easily, anyway) to change certain variables or simulate some other variables without becoming unwieldy or becoming actual simulations. Those variables are almost always certainly never going to change the end result of a comparison, they'll just reduce the accuracy of a result in terms of what you get out of your spreadsheet compared to what you'd see in the actual game by a few DPS, but that impacts every job equally.
Parses are a terrible way to compare anything unless you're comparing data gathered over a long period of time, they function best as tools to collect research data or to compare yourself to others around you and see who needs to be kicked from an alliance for not pulling their weight.
By lugado 2013-06-12 02:51:51
that may be the best response I've ever seen on the purpose of spreadsheets, simulations, parses pro I'm saving that one for future uses
Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-06-12 03:06:19
Numbers are easily abused by people who don't understand what they mean or their purpose. People look at a parse or a spreadsheet and when they don't understand the inner workings, they just go WELL THIS NUMBER IS LARGER!
Well, unfortunately that's not exactly how things work. A spreadsheet can tell you the maximum long-term limit average that a (semi-*)ideal player can achieve in a specific constructed circumstance.
In reality, any given player will only achieve some fraction of the ideal capacity in an ideal situation. There are a lot of things that factor into this: reaction time / reflexes, attentiveness, speed at which the player engages, aggressiveness, anxiety, computer quality, connection speed, ambient temperature, offspring, time in milliseconds since offspring last pooped, use of and/or quality of spellcast, current position in hormonal cycle of female significant other, number of times male significant other has previously masturbated on the current day, time in milliseconds since last cigarette, serum insulin levels, local population density of Anelpistarachne paichnididiakopi spiders, combustibility of pet goldfish, efficiency of macro setup, responsiveness of keyboard, probability that one will engage in oral sex during the event, just sucking in general ...
And there are really no ideal events and only complex simulations can accomodate the odd constraints that might be present to varying degrees, so really in practice you're always looking at a lower number than what you predict. A spreadsheet is meant to tell you what gives you the best chance.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 103
By Fenrir.Caladbolg 2013-06-12 03:21:47
Valefor.Prothescar said: »The entirety of FFXI's combat system is incredibly simple to replicate using basic algebra. Those of us who bother taking the time to code a program to do that call those programs simulations, as they're simulating the game to the tiniest detail, even though most of those details are irrelevant to actual comparisons. For comparing jobs to each other, pieces of gear, entire gearsets, changes in conditions, etc., a true simulation is unparalleled for accuracy; accounting for human/operator error is impossible and can not be blamed on the simulation or its creator, and the results remain the same regardless. These types of mathematics produce absolute answers, you can not question or argue against a number that is hard coded into the game.
Spreadsheets do the exact same thing in a more compact form at the expense of some features in most cases. Their relevancy remains the same, however: you can not argue against cold, hard mathematical facts just on the basis of feels or because of human error. If X job is mathematically superior to Y job, the method used to represent that in numbers does not change the validity of the conclusion. Spreadsheets use the exact same math as simulations, they just don't always have the ability (easily, anyway) to change certain variables or simulate some other variables without becoming unwieldy or becoming actual simulations. Those variables are almost always certainly never going to change the end result of a comparison, they'll just reduce the accuracy of a result in terms of what you get out of your spreadsheet compared to what you'd see in the actual game by a few DPS, but that impacts every job equally.
Parses are a terrible way to compare anything unless you're comparing data gathered over a long period of time, they function best as tools to collect research data or to compare yourself to others around you and see who needs to be kicked from an alliance for not pulling their weight.
Numbers are easily abused by people who don't understand what they mean or their purpose. People look at a parse or a spreadsheet and when they don't understand the inner workings, they just go WELL THIS NUMBER IS LARGER!
Well, unfortunately that's not exactly how things work. A spreadsheet can tell you the maximum long-term limit average that a (semi-*)ideal player can achieve in a specific constructed circumstance.
In reality, any given player will only achieve some fraction of the ideal capacity in an ideal situation. There are a lot of things that factor into this: reaction time / reflexes, attentiveness, speed at which the player engages, aggressiveness, anxiety, computer quality, connection speed, ambient temperature, offspring, time in milliseconds since offspring last pooped, use of and/or quality of spellcast, current position in hormonal cycle of female significant other, number of times male significant other has previously masturbated on the current day, time in milliseconds since last cigarette, serum insulin levels, local population density of Anelpistarachne paichnididiakopi spiders, combustibility of pet goldfish, efficiency of macro setup, responsiveness of keyboard, probability that one will engage in oral sex during the event, just sucking in general ...
And there are really no ideal events and only complex simulations can accomodate the odd constraints that might be present to varying degrees, so really in practice you're always looking at a lower number than what you predict. A spreadsheet is meant to tell you what gives you the best chance.
Quite possibly the best two posts ever posted.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-12 03:26:43
Is there a 'Spreadsheets are Satan's evil *** children' section on the FFXIAH pie chart? If not, it may need to be added.
Leviathan.Andret
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2013-06-12 11:44:42
A lot of people don't study science so they have no idea what parsers, spreadsheets and statistics actually do. I'll throw in my 2 cents to explain them in layman terms.
Parsers results are like case study. You focus on 2-3 unique cases out of a thousand or even a million or even an infinite number of cases. Often used in social science to understand the problems before building statistic models. It doesn't offer you a solid and reasonable number or an average number. What it does is offer you insights into a larger picture. For example, it could tell you how often player A is forgetting to use his Jumps or you are being an MP sink cause you take more damage than everyone but receive lower hits.
Spreadsheets are simulations. It's generally based on mathematics and/or statistical model. It attempts to make a prediction based on what is known. The better the spreadsheet simulation, the more likely you are going to end up somewhere close to the simulation results. For example, a simulation can tell you how long it'd take for you to travel by car from New York to Ottawa. If you travel by car, you will not get the exact simulation result but you will be some where close if the simulation is a good one.
However, making good and accurate simulations for average situation will actually require a few degrees under your belt. It is far easier to make a simulation for ideal situations with predictable variables. This tend to give either an upper limit or lower limit of the average range depending on the simulation. It's not accurate but it will give a general idea. For example, let's say you want to travel from city A to city B. The distance is 500km and you are traveling on a highway with 100km/hr limit. The 'simulation' based on mathematics will give you 5hr. However, your actual travel speed is not 100km/hr and you also take breaks during your trip. So you might take more or less than 5hr but you can expect roughly 5hr for your trip.
The general best practice is to use spreadsheets as guidelines and parsers to fine tune. If you are smart enough, you can use parsers to improve spreadsheets accuracy by factor in various potential human error.
By gargurty 2013-06-12 12:14:23
think this game is getting to be epin peeps only. I know there are jobs that are better at some stuff, but were is the fun in that. It sux for peeps to hear a no thanks on jobs they are.
Oke you might safe 1 minute less fighting with the good dd jobs, but where is the fun then. Give peeps a break.
*** parsers and being epeen and start having fun :)
Shiva.Paulu
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 776
By Shiva.Paulu 2013-06-12 12:19:59
Some people have fun parsing and epeening :D
By gargurty 2013-06-12 12:22:14
i know, seeing big numbers is awesome :) But nowdays sometimes peeps cant even get in a delve pt without a delve weapon. How ye supposed to get 30k if ye dont get a invite? Letalone delve nm's.
Shiva.Paulu
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 776
By Shiva.Paulu 2013-06-12 12:30:56
The same way college grads get their first jobs. Luck & pain I suppose... /sadface
Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3332
By Siren.Kyte 2013-06-12 12:52:12
i know, seeing big numbers is awesome :) But nowdays sometimes peeps cant even get in a delve pt without a delve weapon. How ye supposed to get 30k if ye dont get a invite? Letalone delve nm's.
Hopefully those people have friends that will let them leech a few runs. Alternatively, they could also just play a support job.
Are they used?
Thinking of getting the Ophidian Trident but want to know if DRG have any place in adoulins content?
Any other DRGs have info? ^^
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