|
|
Random Politics & Religion #00
By Ramyrez 2015-01-06 13:50:57
There isn't some secret society conspiring to keep the "Truth" from people. Most simply didn't pay attention in class, or never really cared to read into the time period. The worst are the exceptionalists who deny the US could have done anything wrong.
Bingo. Especially an American capitalist icon like Henry Ford.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 13:53:20
Where's the medal of honor? Where are the vehicles (since the majority, if not all, of the vehicles made for German use was BMWs, not Fords)? Where is the picture of Hitler presenting it to Ford?
Wasn't presented directly by Hitler, it was presented by German ambassadors. Your desired picture is included.
Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration
He did receive the medal. That is a historical fact.
The shady area is whether or not Ford (and GM, for that matter) had any control over their European branches producing vehicles and machinery for Hitler's war engine.
This is information that's been public for quite some time.
Quote: In certain instances, American managers of both GM and Ford went along with the conversion of their German plants to military production at a time when U.S. government documents show they were still resisting calls by the Roosevelt administration to step up military production in their plants at home.
Edit: All I'm saying is this one instance of Lordgrim's normally-inane babble has some basis in reality. "The Greatest Generation" and their rugged, depression-defying parents aren't necessarily as wholesome and clean cut as we constantly hold them up as being. He received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in July of 1938. World War II started in September 1, 1939. So, when Ford received that medal, Hitler wasn't even considered an enemy (to any nation) at that time.
Yeah, Lordgrim's babble has some merit, but only if you take the *** (that is, Lordgrim himself) out of the fact.
That's like saying Aliens invaded Scotland before written history because some guys build Stonehenge.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 13:55:22
If we are going to demonize every corporation for business dealings with enemies today during a time where they were not enemies, you might as well blame yourself for crimes some guy did in 1920, because you are both humans.
All I'm asking is where is the proof Henry Ford sold anything to Germany during WWII?
By Ramyrez 2015-01-06 13:57:45
He received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in July of 1938. World War II started in September 1, 1939. So, when Ford received that medal, Hitler wasn't even considered an enemy (to any nation) at that time.
Yeah, but that's like saying NK's idiotic regime "isn't an enemy".
By the time the 1936 Olympics rolled around, we all knew the Nazis were a bunch of scumbags.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-01-06 13:59:15
He received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in July of 1938. World War II started in September 1, 1939. So, when Ford received that medal, Hitler wasn't even considered an enemy (to any nation) at that time.
Yeah, Lordgrim's babble has some merit, but only if you take the *** (that is, Lordgrim himself) out of the fact.
That's like saying Aliens invaded Scotland before written history because some guys build Stonehenge.
I've told you not to delve into these subjects because you don't know anything about them. Enemies don't become enemies when the first shot is fired, Hitler was a huge threat in 1938, the Munich Pact was a giant landgrab that started churning the warmachine. Hitler was the enemy the moment he seized power.
By Ramyrez 2015-01-06 13:59:39
All I'm asking is where is the proof Henry Ford sold anything to Germany during WWII?
And that's where I already said the shady/grey area rests.
It's a question of whether or not GM and Ford had control of their European factories. They obviously say no. Historical documents don't necessarily support that assertation, however...
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 14:04:40
He received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in July of 1938. World War II started in September 1, 1939. So, when Ford received that medal, Hitler wasn't even considered an enemy (to any nation) at that time.
Yeah, but that's like saying NK's idiotic regime "isn't an enemy".
By the time the 1936 Olympics rolled around, we all knew the Nazis were a bunch of scumbags. Technically we are still at war with N. Korea.
We also think that Palestine is a bunch of scumbags, that doesn't mean that we are going to stop relations with them.
And that's where I already said the shady/grey area rests.
It's a question of whether or not GM and Ford had control of their European factories. They obviously say no. Historical documents don't necessarily support that assertation, however... Problem is, we will never know.
So, let me ask you this then: If somehow it was proven that Ford had dealings with Nazi Germany, what are you going to do about it?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 14:05:55
I've told you not to delve into these subjects because you don't know anything about them. Enemies don't become enemies when the first shot is fired, Hitler was a huge threat in 1938, the Munich Pact was a giant landgrab that started churning the warmachine. Hitler was the enemy the moment he seized power. Whatever you say Lordgrim.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-01-06 14:09:30
Who is advocating action? Its history. The connection between Henry Ford and Hitler is real. Ford was a fool to allow himself to be a propaganda tool, he should never have accepted that medal. Again, why are we talking about this? Because KN is trying to make some nonexistant point? He isn't going to.
By Ramyrez 2015-01-06 14:10:28
So, let me ask you this then: If somehow it was proven that Ford had dealings with Nazi Germany, what are you going to do about it?
It's not about "doing anything" about it by way of reparations. It's about viewing history in a more accurate context and learning from it.
Not that we're any good at that, hence still celebrating Columbus Day...ugh.
By Ramyrez 2015-01-06 14:12:06
I've told you not to delve into these subjects because you don't know anything about them. Enemies don't become enemies when the first shot is fired, Hitler was a huge threat in 1938, the Munich Pact was a giant landgrab that started churning the warmachine. Hitler was the enemy the moment he seized power. Whatever you say Lordgrim.
Again, I'm not sure why it was ever brought up as I'm not going back through pages for Lordgrim. But I'm not sure what your point is in trying to defend or deny things that are documented facts?
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-01-06 14:32:30
Its because he doesn't know these things and tries to posture in a manner so as to maintain some kind of perceived credibility he already lost a long time ago...it's why he thinks the proof doesn't exist.
Seriously he is saying he never heard of Union Banking and Fritz Thyssen? Or that Ford was a Nazi supporter or that Fanta was a product created so that Coca-Cola could sell product in Nazi Germany? Ffs.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 14:37:27
My point is, instead of letting others defend your point, why not defend it yourself? (Not attacking you Ramyrez btw)
See, Lordgrim was making the assertion that A) Hilter himself awarded Ford the highest medal of honor (not true, since it was German ambassadors), B) he was awarded the medal for production during the war (also not true, as he was awarded the medal more than one year prior to the start of the war), and C) he was awarded the medal for making automobiles for the war effort (also not true, as the only supplier of automobiles during that time for Germany was BMW).
He is taking a historical fact and skewing it for this own version of "Truth" and "Justice"
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-01-06 14:38:45
Its because he doesn't know these things and tries to posture in a manner so as to maintain some kind of perceived credibility he already lost a long time ago...it's why he thinks the proof doesn't exist.
Seriously he is saying he never heard of Union Banking and Fritz Thysman? Or that Ford was a Nazi supporter or that Fanta was a product created so that Coca-Cola could sell product in Nazi Germany? Ffs.
Fun fact: The wood shavings from making Model A's was turned into charcoal and sold as "Ford Charcoal", which later became "Kingsford Charcoal"... Completely off-topic, but I rarely get an opening for Henry Ford trivia.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-06 14:46:51
I haven't been following the current conversation, but I'm amazed it has stayed largely civil while being hopelessly Godwin'd.
That said, the US explicitly stayed out of World War II for years because we were profiting by it. There are still politicians who believe the best way to improve a hobbled economy is by selling to both sides of a major war (in a mass media global economy where no major powers really want to scuffle, though, this is probably too risky anymore). We weren't total scavengers, as a big motivator in the Pearl Harbor attack was an embargo on certain goods we'd been selling to Japan, but if we're going to demonize Ford and GM, we also need to demonize pretty much everyone from FDR on down.
Which is exactly why Godwin's Law exists: trying to employ Hitler and the Third Reich in an argument is almost always a crutch meant to drag emotional content over faulty premises.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 14:51:31
Only person here who's trying to make an argument where there is none (and creating strawmans out of his *** to do so) is Vic.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-01-06 14:54:50
Only person here who's trying to make an argument where there is none (and creating strawmans out of his *** to do so) is Vic.
Wait, he's recounting history, how is that a strawman?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 14:57:22
Accusing me of trying to make a point over historical fact when I wasn't trying to. I was just pointing out the flaws in Lordgrim's argument, which Ramyrez was trying to answer for him.
 Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-01-06 15:05:53
I just puked in my mouth a lil'.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 15:08:03
It's called too much alcohol.
 Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-01-06 15:08:03
He received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in July of 1938. World War II started in September 1, 1939. So, when Ford received that medal, Hitler wasn't even considered an enemy (to any nation) at that time.
Yeah, Lordgrim's babble has some merit, but only if you take the *** (that is, Lordgrim himself) out of the fact.
That's like saying Aliens invaded Scotland before written history because some guys build Stonehenge.
I've told you not to delve into these subjects because you don't know anything about them. Enemies don't become enemies when the first shot is fired, Hitler was a huge threat in 1938, the Munich Pact was a giant landgrab that started churning the warmachine. Hitler was the enemy the moment he seized power. He seized power in 1933. I can't really believe I'm actually defending Hitler, but saying that he "was the enemy the moment he seized power" is just a tad over the top.
The US was actively interested in not being involved (see Neutrality Acts), although one could place the exception of 'except to sell arms' (see "cash-and-carry").
There is still debate as to whether or not the US would have joined the war without Pearl Harbor, it was in 1941 that the losses of merchant ships started. In 1939/1940, arguably the majority of confiscations were by British or French forces ( records here). Given the activities and the military buildup it was likely, but by no means certain.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-01-06 15:18:00
Quote: Did Bill Clinton really have an affair with Elizabeth Hurley during his presidency? A shocking new report claimed Hillary Clinton’s husband slept with the British model for a year and even had sex with her in the White House.
This bombshell story came from actor Tom Sizemore, who dated Hurley for several years. A new audio recording unearthed by Radar Online supposedly featured Sizemore revealing how he set up Elizabeth Hurley’s affair with Bill Clinton.
Per Radar, then-President Bill Clinton met Sizemore at a 1998 White House screening of the film Saving Private Ryan. Clinton then showed the actor the Lincoln Bedroom but quickly began asking Sizemore about his ex.
“[Bill Clinton asked me] Did you go with Liz Hurley for four years?” Sizemore said on the recording. “Do you still see her?”
Tom Sizemore then revealed that he was no longer dating Elizabeth Hurley. The President thus asked for the model’s number, though Sizemore was a bit hesitant at first.
“[Clinton said] Give it to me,” Sizemore continued. “You dumb mother f---er, I’m the Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America. The buck stops here. Give me the damn number.”
Bill Clinton Bill Clinton has not yet commented on the latest cheating allegations.
Bill Clinton then supposedly dialed Elizabeth Hurley’s number right there in the White House. He then allegedly sent a plane to the model's house to take her to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
“She was there for four days,” Tom Sizemore said of Elizabeth Hurley’s supposed affair with Bill Clinton. “He f---ed her that night. I asked [Hurley], what was it like there? ... I said was Hillary a problem? And she said ‘No, they sleep in different bedrooms.’ Bill said that, he intimated to Elizabeth that they have been, they’re in love, but they stopped [sleeping together] a long time ago, and they both have separate romantic lives.”
According to Tom Sizemore, Bill Clinton’s affair with Elizabeth Hurley lasted for about a year. But the President ended things when he felt he was falling in love with the model.
“At a certain point, he told her, ‘I don’t do love, and I’m beginning to think I might love you,”’ Sizemore concluded.
Radar Online contacted a rep for Elizabeth Hurley, but the spokesperson refused to comment on this alleged Bill Clinton affair. However, the rep did not deny the tabloid rumor, either.
UPDATE: On Wednesday, Elizabeth Hurley took to Twitter to deny the Bill Clinton affair rumors. "Ludicrously silly stories about me & Bill Clinton," she wrote. "Totally untrue. In the hands of my lawyers. Yawn."
It’s worth noting that Radar Online is not the most reputable source. And while the website does have an audio recording of Tom Sizemore’s remarks, the actor has struggled with drug addiction and thus may not be trustworthy, either.
Still, the model previously expressed an attraction to politicians. So perhaps this report of a Bill Clinton/Liz Hurley affair is not so far-fetched, after all.
“Powerful folk can be sexy,” Hurley said in 2010. “I adore Clinton; you know, naughty but nice with a very sexy voice.”
 Bismarck.Ihina
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3187
By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-01-06 15:27:46
“You dumb mother f---er, I’m the Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America. The buck stops here. Give me the damn number.”
That's pretty awesome if it's true.
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-01-06 15:32:38
I think I found that link on a TMZ article, reading about Charlie Sheen and the Hobbit.
So it's clearly all true.
By Blazed1979 2015-01-06 15:42:15
Quote: Did Bill Clinton really have an affair with Elizabeth Hurley during his presidency? A shocking new report claimed Hillary Clinton’s husband slept with the British model for a year and even had sex with her in the White House.
This bombshell story came from actor Tom Sizemore, who dated Hurley for several years. A new audio recording unearthed by Radar Online supposedly featured Sizemore revealing how he set up Elizabeth Hurley’s affair with Bill Clinton.
Per Radar, then-President Bill Clinton met Sizemore at a 1998 White House screening of the film Saving Private Ryan. Clinton then showed the actor the Lincoln Bedroom but quickly began asking Sizemore about his ex.
“[Bill Clinton asked me] Did you go with Liz Hurley for four years?” Sizemore said on the recording. “Do you still see her?”
Tom Sizemore then revealed that he was no longer dating Elizabeth Hurley. The President thus asked for the model’s number, though Sizemore was a bit hesitant at first.
“[Clinton said] Give it to me,” Sizemore continued. “You dumb mother f---er, I’m the Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America. The buck stops here. Give me the damn number.”
Bill Clinton Bill Clinton has not yet commented on the latest cheating allegations.
Bill Clinton then supposedly dialed Elizabeth Hurley’s number right there in the White House. He then allegedly sent a plane to the model's house to take her to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
“She was there for four days,” Tom Sizemore said of Elizabeth Hurley’s supposed affair with Bill Clinton. “He f---ed her that night. I asked [Hurley], what was it like there? ... I said was Hillary a problem? And she said ‘No, they sleep in different bedrooms.’ Bill said that, he intimated to Elizabeth that they have been, they’re in love, but they stopped [sleeping together] a long time ago, and they both have separate romantic lives.”
According to Tom Sizemore, Bill Clinton’s affair with Elizabeth Hurley lasted for about a year. But the President ended things when he felt he was falling in love with the model.
“At a certain point, he told her, ‘I don’t do love, and I’m beginning to think I might love you,”’ Sizemore concluded.
Radar Online contacted a rep for Elizabeth Hurley, but the spokesperson refused to comment on this alleged Bill Clinton affair. However, the rep did not deny the tabloid rumor, either.
UPDATE: On Wednesday, Elizabeth Hurley took to Twitter to deny the Bill Clinton affair rumors. "Ludicrously silly stories about me & Bill Clinton," she wrote. "Totally untrue. In the hands of my lawyers. Yawn."
It’s worth noting that Radar Online is not the most reputable source. And while the website does have an audio recording of Tom Sizemore’s remarks, the actor has struggled with drug addiction and thus may not be trustworthy, either.
Still, the model previously expressed an attraction to politicians. So perhaps this report of a Bill Clinton/Liz Hurley affair is not so far-fetched, after all.
“Powerful folk can be sexy,” Hurley said in 2010. “I adore Clinton; you know, naughty but nice with a very sexy voice.” Its all true. I know this because my friend's aunt's husband's niece was in Hilary's room licking cleaning carpet.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 15:43:13
The main question was, were there hydras there?
[+]
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-01-06 15:45:23
as the only supplier of automobiles during that time for Germany was BMW). Volkswagen and Daimler-Benz are at least two more off the top of my head, at least that still exist today. I wouldn't be suprised to find more if searching for them.
[+]
By Blazed1979 2015-01-06 15:48:15
as the only supplier of automobiles during that time for Germany was BMW). Volkswagen and Daimler-Benz are at least two more off the top of my head, at least that still exist today. I wouldn't be suprised to find more if searching for them.
Fun Fact: The Mercedes Silver Arrow (ancestor of the modern SLR) was ordered to be designed by Hitler to compete against the British Aston Martin at the Grand Prix.
Fun Fact 2: The BMW emblem is white propellers over blue skies as they built war planes during the war.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-01-06 15:57:27
as the only supplier of automobiles during that time for Germany was BMW). Volkswagen and Daimler-Benz are at least two more off the top of my head, at least that still exist today. I wouldn't be suprised to find more if searching for them.
VW was founded in 1937 and made their first production models in 1938.
Daimler AG and Benz "merged" in 1926 and both continued to make vehicles under both names as well as engines for other German car companies as well as heavy equipment.
Audi made all kinds of specialized vehicles for the army, but continued to make passenger cars during WWII. Audi actually used captured soldiers and civilians as slave labor.
There's about a dozen more companies that are either out of business or have been bought up that were also making cars during that period in Germany.
Fun Fact 2: The BMW emblem is white propellers over blue skies as they built war planes during the war.
That war was WWI, by the way.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-06 16:08:42
as the only supplier of automobiles during that time for Germany was BMW). Volkswagen and Daimler-Benz are at least two more off the top of my head, at least that still exist today. I wouldn't be suprised to find more if searching for them. Sorry, meant to emphasis German vehicles.
Watch out people, I stand corrected!
Random Politics & Religion is for topics that aren't thread worthy on their own and do not have their own existing thread.
Rules and Guidelines
Forum Rules and P&R Section Guidelines still apply.
Satire is tolerated.
If your topic covers a story over 6 months old (Watergate, Benghazi, 2012 Election, etc.) post it here.
Discussions on racism, homophobia, transphobia, and the like are allowed, targeted insults based on these will not be tolerated.
Political debates get heated and are meant to be intense, if you take offense to being called or proven wrong, you don't belong here.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen; if you prove you can't handle the criticism you bring upon yourself in this thread, you may be removed from it. You are responsible for what you post.
Along those lines, heat is fine, but sustained, clearly personal hostility is not okay. The personal attack rules still apply. Attack positions, not posters. Failure to adhere to this will result in your removal from the thread.
This thread is NOT the Flame Core.
These rules are subject to change and modification where and when needed.
Random Politics & Religion may be mained or demained depending on the activity within at a Moderator's discretion.
With that out of the way, let the debates begin!
/bow
|
|
