Faith Torque

I have a somewhat simple question regarding the Faith Torque. For a mnk with capped, fully merited h2h, does using the faith torque increase the weapon rank of destroyers.

If it doesn't, what damage benefits over the PCA does it have? If we ignore the price, or how hard they are to obtain.

it offers ~5 to 6 atk and acc. Acc wise, pcc is better, but its always cool to have more skill. Also 5 mnd for chi blast is pretty nice. In terms of obtaining (if you're not in a sea shell) pca is much easier to get.

on a side note im looking to buy 1 on carbuncle send me a tell with price you want for it

If your h2h is capped at 8/8, then it will not raise your weapon rank. But if you stack accuracy in other areas, I see nothing wrong with using a faith torque. Also, ***'s situational. I'd shoot to have both.

I myself do not have a torque (it never drops) but I would love to have one. A few BLMs can kite it around easy enough. You can also go with MNK/NIN tank, a couple healers (with erase), and two BRDs.

Acc capped? Faith Torque, acc uncapped? Pcc.

With capped h2h merits, faith torque is 7 attack 7 acc (7 acc at any number of h2h merits, but fluctuates between 6-7 acc depending on your h2h skill prior to adding the torque).

I personally use both, and actually use faith torque more than I do PCC, but I keep PCC around for when I do need it.

While PCC is better when your acc is uncapped, with pizza+1, the number of situations where your acc won't be capped are much less likely. Even when you are in those situations, you should still be capping acc w/ focus, which means you'd still be using faith torque 40% of the time.

All that said though, look at your current acc and gear appropriately. Honestly though, I've been playing with Justice Torque in capped acc situations as well recently. +1.25 fstr (average) easily beats the 4-5 attack advantage faith torque gives, but with 7 less acc, it's only viable when you know your acc is going to be capped regardless of what you wear.

Yes, I do feel Faith Torque is a valuable item to have around.

assuming you're acc is over 90% you gain; ~1.7% damage from that 7 atk at 400, ~1.5% at 450, and ~1.4% at 500. the benefits of acc aren't static either, it's not always 2 acc = 1% hit rate (that model was more or less created for estimating what amount of acc it would take to get into the 90% range), as you hit the 90% acc range you end up needing more than 10 acc to reach cap (closer to 3~4 acc:1% rate). on top of that you will be able to use pizza in most situations (yes, sadly not every mob eats your food, lol) giving you the ability to drop some acc in areas, now where you drop it for the largest boost to damage is debatable, but pcc >> torque is a viable option.

after all is said and done, if you're not in the 90%+ acc rate range, pcc is most likely your better option though.

2 acc is 1% hitrate at all times on AVERAGE if you're not hitting either side of the cap. It doesn't change at 90-94%, but like I said, it's an average. So sometimes you'll be slightly under sometimes you may be slightly over, but over time it will average out.

We also have to keep in mind that attack only helps your DoT (roughly 65-70% of your total damage) and acc helps all your damage (because you get more TP, which means you will WS more). So if we're at a point to where they're both a 1.5% increase w/o applying the DoT/WS ratio, then the acc would remain 1.5% increase and the attack would be 1.5 x .7 = 1.05% increase.

All that being said, I still stick w/ my previous statement of mnk should be caped more often than not and even then, there's still focus, which accounts for 40% of your fighting time.

I wasn't suggesting that you drop your acc under cap to swap for damage boosting gear. what I was trying to say is that the gains and detriments are smaller than most people tend to think.

as for atk not increasing WS dmg, sure it isn't if you're not capping acc, but you're wrong to make the statement that it isn't increasing WS damage. it's true that the gain is less than normal because of the increase in atk from boost is going to drop the damage 0.1~0.2% (some cases 0.3%) less than it would be on average, but that's besides the point you should be using a gorget any way.

for acc rate, on average this is true, it doesn't really change. but, it is calcuated on an obtuse slope, however slight it may be, does not mean it doesn't change.

I guess I'll have to cover every base next time I try to help by adding more info, because apparently some info still isn't common knowledge yet. then again it's just easier arguing because I'm lazy when it comes to forgetting to post simple things.

"as for atk not increasing WS dmg, sure it isn't if you're not capping acc, but you're wrong to make the statement that it isn't increasing WS damage. it's true that the gain is less than normal because of the increase in atk from boost is going to drop the damage 0.1~0.2% (some cases 0.3%) less than it would be on average, but that's besides the point you should be using a gorget any way."

No, I'm not wrong. You didn't understand what I was trying to say.

I'm not saying wearing attack during WS does 0 for WS damage. I'm saying TP'ing in attack does nothing for WS damage.

For exmaple, you TP in acc gear. You get DoT from landing more hits. From the more hits, you also get more TP. You use this TP and WS more times than before. TP'ing in acc will raise your DoT AND your WS damage.

TP'ing in attack only increases damage/hit. TP'ing in attack will not get you tp any faster. TP'ING in attack gear does ZERO for your ws damage, where as TP'ING in acc gear will help all of your damage, not just your DoT

For example let's say we're going to use the same ws set no matter what we tp in.

TP: Faith Torque WS: Faith Torque
vs
TP: Peacock Charm WS: Faith Torque


They will do the same direct ws damage because you're WS'ing in the same thing, but since you're tp'ing in PCC, you will WS more times, which means it increases your WS damage indirectly, through frequency. TP'ing in the attack in the first set up, does zero to help your ws damage.


Let's say we have 500 attack and 90% hitrate. Our DoT is 70% of our damage, and 30% of our damage is WS damage.

PCC has 3 more acc than faith torque at capped h2h merits, 1.5% hitrate.

1.5/90 = 1.67% increase to DoT and 1.67% increase to number of WS. 1.67 x .7(DoT) + 1.67 x .3 (WS damage) = 1.67% increase to total damage

Faith torque has 7 attack more than pcc
Assuming lv 82 birds
((507/293)-.35)/((500/293)-.35) = 1.76% increase to DoT, 0% increase to WS damage.
1.76 x .7 (DoT)+ 0 x .3 (Ws damage)= 1.232% increase to total damage.

Pretty much meaning, Faith Torque when acc is capped, pcc when acc is uncapped. Uncapped acc, the 3 acc beats the 7 attack because the 3 acc applies to all damage, where as tp'ing in attack only helps DoT.

And this is for mnk, one of the heaviest DoT jobs in the game. On a job like sam, where the damage is 30% DoT and 70% ws, acc easily beats attack/str in pretty much every slot, unless you're already capped.

but me like my justice torque with bushi earring and 4 great katana merits <.<

Hypothetical sam situation time.

Hagun, 10 fstr, 90% hitrate, 500 attack.

When using bushi, you only get 6 acc from justice torque.

(297 vs 304 skill, 200 + (97 x .9) = 287.3 acc, rounds down to 287 200 + (104 x .9 ) = 293.6, rounds down to 293) 293-287 = 6.

So, there is a 4 acc difference between PCC and Justice Torque, 2% hitrate

2/90 = 2.22% increase in DoT and WS damage. 2.22 x .3 (DoT) + 2.22 x .7 (WS frequency) = 2.22% total increase

hagun is 75 DMG, 10 fstr = 85 DMG. 1-2 fstr from torque.
1/85 = 1.18% increase. 2/85 = 2.35% increase. You'll get 1 fstr 75% of the time and 2 fstr 25% of the time
(1.18 + 1.18 + 1.18 + 2.35)/4 = 1.4725% average increase

11 attack from torque (including attack from str)
((511/293)-.35)/((500/293)-.35) = 2.77% increase

1.0277 x 1.014725 compounding str/attack = 4.28% increase, which only applies to DoT, not WS damage
4.28 x .3 (DoT) + 0 x .7 (WS frequency) = 1.284% increase.

Torque only better than PCC when acc is capped. That being said, on sam, your acc should be capped more often than not, but in any situation your acc isn't capped, pcc kills torque.

it really depends, sure pca may offer more acc, but i like looking at 304 gk skill. Sadly, I don't have a justice torque XD.

Yes, it depends. It depends on whether you enjoy cosmetics more than damage. If you enjoy cosmetics, then Jtorque is the way to go. If you enjoy outputting the most damage, then PCC is your way to go when acc is uncapped. That's the only depending factor.

so you're trying to argue about what now? total damage from the looks of it. I guess getting the point across that "***'s situational" isn't coming across very clearly.

your standard mnk (that's going to be +13 stp these days?) with nearly capped acc rate (let's say 93.5%, for argument's sake following your model) is going to need 9 rounds (this is going to assume continuous fighting and no tp loss) to get to 100% tp if every hit lands and there are no double attack/kick attack rounds, so give or take 1~2 rounds depending on luck. at 95% acc you're going to expect a loss of 1 hit every tp phase, so at 93.4% you're going to lose an extra hit every 3 tp phases or so.

let's do it this way since it'll be easier for me to show what I'm getting at, now you'll have to realize that these are all estimated numbers and if you want to narrow it down more feel free to, but the results are going to be more or less the same either way:

1000 rounds, a possible 111 WSs;

at 95% that'll be 1900 hits landed before DA/KA are factored in, giving 105 WSs.
now lets assume that every hit is going to do approx. 55 dmg/hit and 850 for WSs, that comes out to 104500 dmg during TP and 89250 WS.
193750 total

at 93.5% we're getting 1870 hits landed for a possible 103 WSs.
the 7 atk (appx. 1.5% for this example) is going to give us 55.825 dmg/hit (I know about decimals in ffxi, but I really don't want to do the math for pDif range changes atm), comes out to 104392 TP and 88600 WS from 860.2 dmg/ws (that's getting the lowest benefit from torque during WS at 1.2%).
192992 total

758 total difference before DA/KA and range variance are factored in, that's a total increase of ~0.35% in favor of capped acc. of course, this isn't totally accurate 'cause you'll want to be using focus when it's up (total outcome for this ability changes depending on merits), it may take more rounds to reach 100% in many cases, along with missing firing WSs at 100% because of attack speed, and ideally you'll be using a gorget for WSs instead of either. all of those instances (except focus of course) also favor capped acc, but we're talking about by one tenth of a percent increase.

what does it mean? nothing really, why? because "***'s situational" and you should gear according to circumstance, if you don't totally understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

"so you're trying to argue about what now? total damage from the looks of it. I guess getting the point across that "***'s situational" isn't coming across very clearly."

You're selectively reading. I've already said in my posts that my calculations were for UNCAPPED accuracy, and that torques are superior when acc is capped. That already falls into the "***'s situational" category.

If you think I'm saying PCC is the endall be all neck, then you should reread my post. Each and every one has been based on situational, the particular situation, being when acc is uncapped.

I'll repeat it one more time.

IT IS SITUATIONAL.

PCC WHEN ACC IS UNCAPPED
TORQUE WHEN ACC IS CAPPED.

If you count this as not being situational, then I'd be happy to PM you some dictionary links of the word situational.

Edit:
Which part of


Gave you 1.5?

you've been doing the same if you've payed attention, your argument started after my first post on the matter and you've been acting like I'm suggesting faith torque is better all of the time. I never once argued that either was better than the other outside of their situation, just that the situation isn't as narrow as most people will say it is.

haha, so you take a typo and blow it out of proportion with screaming, nice.

"and you've been acting like I'm suggesting faith torque is better all of the time. "
Not at all. Read again. I was disputing the fact that you said that after 90% hitrate 2 acc no longer 1% hitrate.

you can scream over the internet?

ITS JUST HOW I TALK. AINT YOU SEEN MY MOVIES? JUICE, DEEP BLUE SEA. THEY ATE ME. A *** SHARK ATE ME

SAMUEL L. JACKSON; GOOD *** BEER!

it isn't directly, I'll have to dig up the curve (assuming I can even find it again), but it shows 2 acc =/= 1% rate (yes, there are decimals involved). this isn't the easiest to parse either because of the sample size needed to narrow down the margin of error enough to give an accurate reading is absurdly high. (if you've parsed your own acc at times you'll realize that it isn't completely accurate when you cross reference your numbers with suggested numbers.)

I'm not saying the formula changes at all as your acc rate gets higher, it's on an obtuse curve. on merit level mobs with lesser eva the statement of 2:1% will hold true for the most part (taking more along the lines of 2.83 acc or something odd like that getting from 94% >> 95%), but as the mob's eva increases it's going to slowly scale up.

of course this info could easily be off because of the obvious scale, but from observation it tends to hold true.

So this is my gear that I use now (only need lava's ring):


Seeing as I don't have any usu right now I'm not sure I will be capped acc for big things yet, even with pizza. For my purposes I'm leaning toward PCA as being the best choice until I start to obtain usu pieces.

Right now I use my mnk for Kirin, Dynamis (sometimes including DL), salvage, Einherjar, and merits. Our shell will be starting sea soon.

If you're not capped w/ pizza, focus is +15% hitrate. Can't think of any non byakko type mob that you should be under 80 w/ pizza+1. That being said, even if your acc isn't capped before pizza+1, torque w/ focus up. Dynamis, depends on the zone. Icelands should be tougher on the acc, but cities you should have no problem. Salvage, everything but the boss you should have no acc probs. Ejar depends on the tier, but I think you should be fine w/ pizza+1. merits, depends on the camp.

In a Salvage sense...
I had a setup identical to this before except instead of PCA/C, I used Faith Torque and +ATK hands instead of kote. With Pizza +1, I had capped hitrate on everything except Armored Chariot and QQ Treasure Hunters, so you should consider using ATK hands mostly when in Salvage.

*** lol'd hard...

kinda surprised noone saw my obvious flaw in uncapped acc WS's dmg. should average lower than posted, but any way.

my main point was that the torque can surpass pcc/pca at a lower hit rate than most players suggest (capped), even if it's not that big of a difference from being capped. at 93.6% hit-rate, tp phase damage start starts to surpass capped rate, but capped rate will still win through the addition of that extra WS every 1000 rounds. at 93.8% hit-rate it starts to surpass capped rate in total damage. I realize for the most part calculating those hit-rates is nearly impossible, and truthfully noone will probably go as far as to tailor their build upon such evidence (the sample size for trying to parse such would be immense for reducing the margin of error to an accurate enough reading).

take it how ya see it, I just had to find the breaking point out of curiosity after all that.

note; yeah, this was calculated considering that both uncapped and capped hit-rate tp build's would use the same WS build for capping acc. because, realistically, people will shoot for slightly over cap during multi-hit WSs no matter their tp build.