Theological Ramblings.

This is intended to be an open ended and branching thread on theology.

Any religion, any theology.

I would ask the mods to delete any post that tries to turn this thread political but realize theology and politics often intertwine. As examples I offer Liberation theology and the song Jesus was a workingman

I will open with a story from my past.

Long ago, before the interwebs and when the Seattle Post Intelligencer was a newspaper and not a website I was looking for my next truck. The PI used to post Billy Graham's column in the used cars section. I always thought it appropriate placement and always read it. Sometimes when I wasn't even shopping for cars.

Someone asked the reverend Dr. Billy Graham if there would be sex in heaven. He replied (and I paraphrase) ""Heaven of of the spirit and sex is of the body so there cannot be sex in heaven."

This is pretty theologically mainstream Jewish and Christian. I have no idea about the Islamic 40 virgins thing.

Less than three months later, I still hadn't found the right truck, I stumbled across his column again. This time someone asked him if there would be golf in heaven. His response (again paraphrased) "golf is a perfectly innocent enjoyment so of course there will be golf in heaven."

1, I will call this Bambi principle theology. As in "it feels warm and fuzzy so I will believe it."

2, my instant thoughts: "WHAT? Golf and no sex? Too many Republicans there for me. (Later on I learned that Republicans are more into kink than Democrats but that's another thread.)

3, Golf, with the constant involvement of competition and ego, is innocent and sex, even within marriage, is not?

Tangent and also an example of how theology and politics can intertwine.

I once met a young earth creationist. Well actually I had known her for a long time but not well. We were on the same crew at the Oregon Country Fair for a few years before we had a chance to really talk. It was at a Deadhead party.

Full disclosure: I wasn't a Deadhead, but a LOT of my friends were. I have been at more Deadhead parties than Grateful Dead concerts.

So we are dancing, usual thing, more girls want to dance than boys, nothing sexual, and talking. I can't remember how it came up but she said she was a young earth creationist, I think 7th day Adventist.

I SO wanted to talk about the roots of her belief. I tend toward the rational creation and try to understand other's beliefs.

But all the "liberal" Deadheads, on hearing that SO shouted her down, as in denied and despised, that I never got a chance to get her answer.

Okay, I guess I did say that I'd join you in your next religion thread. Not all Christian religions share Billy Graham's views, as I'm sure you're aware. There are several denominations that believe in a physical resurrection, essentially rejecting the idea that heaven is populated only by spirits. If a spirit can play golf, doesn't that imply some form of physicality anyway? A lot of evangelical beliefs, including their adherence to the Nicene Creed, don't make any sense to me.

Hippies golf deadheads republicans this thread has it all !


I just have one question is this real life ?


Billy Graham is that the guy on TV ? Yea I don't think he represents most Christians.

Televangelists (and their non-nationally-televised counterparts running megachurches) probably represent more Christians in the US than any other figurehead does. Think about that and become very, very troubled.

There is this guy called the Pope. I think he has his own TV show also.

It is one thing to discuss religion it is another to discuss famous people in religion.


The very title of this thread mocks religion before we even have a discussion.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or what. I suspect you don't understand what I'm saying.

Pop-Christianity associated with famous and powerful people is considerably more prevalent and influential than most other sects. These "non-denominational" cash-grabs disguised as religion are what many people think is their religion. Our President was associated with this garbage, if you'll recall, which is just another reason to find him depressing.

I really don't care about Billy Graham the Pope etc. If you want to be religious fine. If you don't have a religion that is fine. What is there to really discuss ? Just your reasons why or why not.

you used a photocopier and a stapler to repost articles on telephone poles?

on topic. In that same bygone age I came up with a theory that jesus committed state assisted suicide by not answering NO!! to the question; are you the son of god? knowing that any answer other than NO!! would get him killed, answering "I am who am" sealed his fate... of course with the help of google I can see I am not alone in proposing this rather unpopular opinion...

However, back in those days you would argue with people in person and quite naturally sometimes those disagreements would come to fisticuffs.

Which is what is really missing from the modern world today... The settling of differences by punching some random stranger in the face. Instead we have the swift and possibly irreversible woosification of the general american public who are now hiding behind their computer screens rather than going toe to toe vox populi style on the streets.

and it's getting boring!

you used to be required to have BALLS to talk ***, preferable made of brass or some other equally hard material and/or the muscle/physicality to back that ***up.

ask yourself... how many times would you have felt SO MUCH BETTER if you could just haul off and bash my (or any other poster that springs to mind) face in with a brick?

FU NIKOLCE! /hulksmash

You know deep down THAT is what is really missing....

One time I was standing around, being my usual jerky self, when a guy came up behind me seizing both arms behind my back and lifting me up and spinning me 180 degrees around all in one motion and at that exact moment, a girl, on the run, kicked me in the balls so hard I vomited blood...

Now as it turned out I wasn't even the guy whose balls she originally wanted to put through the goal post at seventy five years out. BUT who wouldn't want to take that running shot given the opportunity!?

I know I would! and I'm me! Because despite the unimaginable pain I could still see her point clearly enough to appreciate the subtlety of it. She was right and I was WRONG!

It didn't matter that I wasn't the guy, every guy in the vicinity could see the validity of her point. It was well made and very clearly stated, I might add.

I could tell by the look on her face, that in that moment (before she realized I was the wrong guy) that there was a great sense of closure that I fear none of you will ever know. That definitive winning of the argument, whatever it was and whoever it was with.

Realizing her mistake her and her male cohort made a tactical retreat/chased after the guy she actually wanted to punt forth and long from her own five yard line in the first place.... who after having witnessed this rather brutal act and instinctively doubling over himself in phantom pain, smartly/finally realized that this was all supposed to be happening to him, so he took off running with the speed of an entire gazelle herd in whatever direction seemed right at the time.

Now, I don't know if they ever caught up to him, it's not really important. The surprise had all gone out of it at that point... Which, let me just add was one of the best/worst aspects of the whole deal.

There was a time, when anything you said, could be held against you in the court of the parking lot, where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent by brainless acts of berserk violence at any given moment. You had to stand by your own words and occasionally by the words of others... but there was a reckoning and a consequence for everything you ever said or did to anyone.

amen.

Most theologians I have spoken too, and these are mostly Christians with a theology degree, say that they have personally concluded that:

Life is nothing more than a fear simulator. If you hold the tennets that all souls are eternal and ultimately they can not be harmed or damaged then the current experience serves no purpose other than to stimulate and simulate fear.

I actually kinda agree with this. Given I can get arrested on an assault charge if I spit on someone's shoes (not kidding, look it up), I obviously have considerable reason not to loosen the teeth of the jackass who keeps moving in front of me while I browse at the grocery store, but, boy, I really would've liked to have informed him of his place since he was clearly trying to start a fight.

However, I don't agree with the "random" bit. I don't want to hit someone just because I'm pissed off and they're convenient. I want to at least direct my anger at someone who deserves it. To that end, I propose that we erect stocks in front of every statehouse and city hall whereby one elected official per day is locked up to be pelted with anything softer than a rock. Bonus points if you chuck your aborted infant at a pro-lifer.

Philosophical response: does pleasure have much meaning without fear?

There's a very real part of me that worries that if my consciousness is eternal, I'll be a very different entity when dead since I'll no longer have my endocrine system creating emotions.

Another Chanti bait thread...

I mean, I hadn't really considered it... but if you provide enough of your personal information, I'm sure a few of us can scrounge together enough cash to hire someone to beat your face in. Or if you prefer something more personal, we can meet in an alley somewhere, you can insult my mother, and I can just happen to have a baseball bat on hand. Really it's your call. Whatever would give you that genuine experience you're looking for.

I don't know why people choose to focus on the negative aspects in life.

And then there's this:

Seriously? You're going to make up things just so you can worry about them?

Can't some of you people just learn to be happy.

Thinking makes me happy, but thinking also results in my contemplating reality, which isn't inherently happy or unhappy. Are you seriously advocating that I seek bliss by turning off my brain? 'cause I'm sure that's the definition of religion.

Well I appreciate your consideration.

But you wouldn't take the swing yourself. And it's not necessarily your fault, it's a product of the times. I'm an *** all the time in public and much to the chagrin of others. And I am telling you there is a measurable lack of brutality that once used to permeate our society...

you don't know what you are missing because you weren't there to witness it to see it....

you have Onorgul in a post above yours, worrying about lawsuits and being arrested... no one used to care about those things.

No one called the police. no one would think to. It just wasn't done.

There was no one to call or hire or complain to other than what friends you could muster to physically support your cause.

I'm advocating not pulling random nonsense out of your behind for the sake of having something to worry about.

Was having a conversation about this with a neighbor, since he and I and some others were lamenting about some undesirables who moved into the area. They're dirty, don't clean up the yard, bringing property values down etc etc.

One of the guys was lamenting about how back in the day you could just walk over to the neighbors and let them know how you feel, ask them to do something about it. If they didn't want to, then you and the rest of the neighborhood could just kick the ***out of them, and if the police were called you could just tell them you're having a neighborhood dispute and it has since been resolved.

So can you actually quote Hobbes, Nikolce, or are you just fond of repeating what he said?

I remember writing a paper on him in college. In his work describing the state of nature (the one where he describes human life as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short), he had a footnote that effectively pointed out that he didn't really believe his own tripe. Apparently I was the only person in the class who could be arsed to read footnotes when trying to refute a known hypocrite and curmudgeon.

Define random nonsense. We know that emotions are glandular. If I live on after my body dies, goodbye emotions. I'm already closer to that state than most as it is, owing to a 1% quirk of neurotype.

I still "welcome" people that come to my door with a blast from a refillable fire extinguisher before inquiring as to their reasons for being there. I have a little speech and everything....

I AM THE EXTINGUISHER
OF HOPES AND DREAMS
THE ALPHA OF THE OMEGA
THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF ALL THINGS...etc.

I keep hoping Mormon missionaries will knock on my door so I can invite them in and teach them the carnal pleasures of Greek love. Sadly, they're always Jehovah's Witnesses, who are neither as pretty nor as gullible.

Concern regarding the afterlife.

So not really "random nonsense" as "something Ihina doesn't want to contemplate." That's fine (I guess), but be honest about it.

How about you stop being defensive and actually think about what I'm saying.

How about you look at what you're saying and where you're saying it. Or how about you look at the comment that prompted this. If you seriously don't want to even consider one of the primary conundrums of religion and philosophy, maybe you should go elsewhere.

Or not.

Call it what you want, it's stupid to make up nonsense garbage just so you can worry about. People have enough things to worry about in reality, we don't need to turn to fantasy. Calling it a "primary conundrem of rel" blah blah doesn't give it any merit; it's seriously not any different than losing your mind over whether your favorite cartoon character is going to live pass the next episode.

Long story short, stop being a moron.

Well, it's always nice to see that atheists are every bit as HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE as the religious, then. Do enjoy your ignorance.

By the way, I get considerable humor out of people who regularly hyperbolize things they disagree with in an effort to make their lacking argument stronger. I said it worries me, not that I sit awake at night pissing the bed about it. I worry that it'll rain tomorrow on my bike ride to work. Worry isn't crippling anxiety, honey.

Blah blah blah you're just having fun. Yeah, we've all heard those lines a million times already, please spare us again.

And I don't recall you being a conservative, don't pull the same-thing both-sides garbage here. If I sat here and openly expressed my concerns over what Wolverine would do to me when he finds me, first of all you'd think I'm insane, but secondly, you'd roll your eyes pretty hard if I said you were ignorant for not even considering it.