Opinionated History Lessons! World War 2!

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Opinionated History Lessons! World War 2!
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 10:48:20
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Since nobody wants to bring opinionated WW2 history from P&R, and history generally isn't political in nature, figured we should start a thread here. Mainly so I can contribute too!

Although one person claims that opinions on who helped the war effort the most was Americans, another claims that it's all American propaganda.

So, the question to the class is, who, in your opinion, contributed the most in the war to help win it for the Allies?

My opinion is, while Russia was turning the tide on the eastern front during Operation Barbarossa, it wasn't until after the Americans entered the war (or, really, the idiot from Germany decided to declare war on America without realizing that America would have mainly sit out the European side of the war if he never did a damn thing against the US, like declaring war on the US) that the tide really started in favor towards the Allies.

So, long story short, it was the Americans who contributed the most, mainly by the influx of fresh troops during the later half of the war, controlling the Pacific front from the other Allied Nations so they can concentrate on the European front more, and also the mighty American Industrial strength and supply lines.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 10:53:11
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Although, let me also acknowledge that if Britain didn't hold out as long as they did, the war would have ended in mid to late 1941.

So, props to them for not turning French on the rest of the world and giving up.
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 Carbuncle.Skulloneix
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-01-15 10:54:02
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Since nobody wants to bring opinionated WW2 history from P&R, and history generally isn't political in nature, figured we should start a thread here. Mainly so I can contribute too!

Although one person claims that opinions on who helped the war effort the most was Americans, another claims that it's all American propaganda.

So, the question to the class is, who, in your opinion, contributed the most in the war to help win it for the Allies?

My opinion is, while Russia was turning the tide on the eastern front during Operation Barbarossa, it wasn't until after the Americans entered the war (or, really, the idiot from Germany decided to declare war on America without realizing that America would have mainly sit out the European side of the war if he never did a damn thing against the US, like declaring war on the US) that the tide really started in favor towards the Allies.

So, long story short, it was the Americans who contributed the most, mainly by the influx of fresh troops during the later half of the war, controlling the Pacific front from the other Allied Nations so they can concentrate on the European front more, and also the mighty American Industrial strength and supply lines.
Seems on point. I would agree that Axis Powers attacking Russia was a fault. If they could have focuses more on England they may have crumbled. Big MAY though. It may have forced England to surrender on crappy but better terms than being toppled and added to the Reich.

It is sad that Russia's contribution is grossly ignored. Probably because America was part of the winners, and the adage that the Winner's right history.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 10:57:33
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Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
It is sad that Russia's contribution is grossly ignored. Probably because America was part of the winners, and the adage that the Winner's right history.
Naw, most people forget about Russia's involvement because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939. If Hitler never attacked Russia (he did it because he hate commies more than capitalists, apparently), then the world map would be a whole lot different today.
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 Bahamut.Scizor
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By Bahamut.Scizor 2020-01-15 11:04:35
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America supplied the majority of the mech, British had the unmatched intelligence and the Russians had the man power.

All 3 were instrumental in the victory, I wouldn't say a single country played a bigger part than the others.

I'd dare say China fighting Japan might have even been a tipping point for the allies.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 11:09:16
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Bahamut.Scizor said: »
America supplied the majority of the mech, British had the unmatched intelligence and the Russians had the man power.
I'll give you that no one nation won the war by itself.

While Russia did have the most manpower and Allied losses, that's mainly because of the 3 nations mentioned, only Russia was effectively invaded. Germans did bomb the hell out of Brits, but never landed and fought on British soil.

And Hawaii was the only place hurt on the American side, and technically Hawaii wasn't even a state at the time, so American "technically" was never bombed at all. "Technically."

All 3 nations contributed significantly, but you can't say that they all contributed equally or equally effectively. That's impossible.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2020-01-15 11:20:44
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America's entrance in the war was only as consequential as it was to the Western Theater because the Axis and Allies were effectively evenly matched once the Pervitin wore off. The pace of the early war was set by the Blitzkrieg, and the Blitzkrieg worked because of drugs. Russia - through even greater losses, of course - probably would have won the war without American help eventually, as Germany was not nearly as effective a fighting force as the impression you'd get if you didn't know they were methed out of their minds those first few weeks in Poland.

One thing America CAN take credit for - beyond the single greatest act of industrial mobilization in the history of the world - is occupying Italy, effectively opening a third front.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 11:29:11
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Russia - through even greater losses, of course - probably would have won the war without American help eventually, as Germany was not nearly as effective a fighting force as the impression you'd get if you didn't know they were methed out of their minds those first few weeks in Poland.
That plus stupid mistakes made by Hitler.

For example: Operation Barbarossa anticipated that Germany would occupy Moscow and, essentially Russia, before the winter of 1941. Germans never packed winter clothes or gear, or outfitted their tanks to handle the winter climate that Russia has. Along with diverting his forces from the southern flank to the center push, then back again, kept him from occupying the oil fields in southern Russia, at least for long enough to actually matter.

Germans were better equipped and their tanks were of a better quality than the Russians at the time of the first push, but when Pearl Harbor hit, and Americans started supplying the Russians with better gear, the Germans found themselves at the short end of the technological stick towards the end.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-15 11:50:05
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Bahamut.Scizor said: »
America supplied the majority of the mech, British had the unmatched intelligence and the Russians had the man power.

All 3 were instrumental in the victory, I wouldn't say a single country played a bigger part than the others.

I'd dare say China fighting Japan might have even been a tipping point for the allies.

Uh, what is this "unmatched British intelligence" you speak of? The British were lucky to even be in the war, Hitler bombing London instead of bombing the RAF airfields cost the Germans the Battle of Britain. It wasn't the British holding out, they were on the verge of defeat and then Hitler stopped his campaign to bomb London.

On top of that, Market Garden extended the war another year. The "great mind" of Bernard Montgomery cost the Allies thousands of lives, resources, and a route into Germany. Give that gasoline to Patton and Bradley and they are in Germany in 1944. The war ends at least 6 months sooner. Thanks, England.

Lastly, what is this tipping point you speak of regarding China? The tipping point in the Pacific Front was the Battle of Midway in June 1942. Thats right, 6 months after Pearl Harbor, the outcome of the War in the Pacific was decided. The Japanese lost all 4 of their carriers in the battle and they never again mounted another serious threat. It was a full retreat from then on. They managed to have their Battle of the Bulge moment at Guadalcanal and sunk one of our careers, at the cost of 90% of their airplanes, bravo.

Hirohito should have sued for peace in 1942. He would have saved hundreds of thousands of his people, and the atomic bombings never happen.
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 Carbuncle.Skulloneix
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-01-15 11:52:45
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Viciouss said: »
On top of that, Market Garden extended the war another year. The "great mind" of Bernard Montgomery cost the Allies thousands of lives, resources, and a route into Germany. Give that gasoline to Patton and Bradley and they are in Germany in 1944. The war ends at least 6 months sooner. Thanks, England.
This single handedly restored my faith in you!
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 12:02:50
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Let's not kid ourselves, both sides made some real boneheaded moves.

But Hitler should have done two things: 1) Never attacked Russia, or at least waited until Britain was under his control, and/or 2) Never *** with the Americans, at least until Europe was under his complete control.

Those two strategic blunders are what really cost him the war. Japan attacking America was a bad thing, but he made it 10 times worse by automatically declaring war on America as soon as America declared war on Japan, and only Japan.

Congress was very specific on their first declaration of war.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2020-01-15 12:07:41
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I’m not sure who contributed to WW2, but i am pretty it was Oppenheimer that ended it.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 12:09:57
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
I’m not sure who contributed to WW2, but i am pretty it was Little Boy and Fat Boy that ended it.
fixed for accuracy.

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By Viciouss 2020-01-15 12:16:22
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I’m not sure who contributed to WW2, but i am pretty it was Little Boy and Fat Man that ended it.
fixed for accuracy.


Fixed again!
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 12:17:58
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Ehh.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-15 12:22:34
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IT MATTERS!
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 12:23:13
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LOUD VOICES!
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2020-01-15 12:53:30
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More than anything I am always annoyed that we consider the French - a country that was completely overwhelmed by insane methheads driving tanks - cowards for surrendering in a war brought about by an insanely toxic ideology that Italy went out of its way to nurture and protect when it could and should have been stamped out and then went on to be worse than useless.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-15 12:57:07
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I will personally always mock the French for building a wall that stretched for a few miles along the French/German border to prevent Germany from invading them again, only to see the Germans simply drive around said wall that only stretched for a few miles. Like really guys? They call it the Great Wall of China for a reason, mainly, how it spans the entire country. Only the French.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 13:01:48
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Naw, the stigma about the French overall war record. Also, it's just to tease them a little.



I think everyone here can understand that if the French were ever serious about war, they would go all Napoleon on us and the rest of the world.

Edit:

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 Asura.Slamm
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By Asura.Slamm 2020-01-15 13:14:28
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Americans contributing the most is nothing but a Hollywood myth.
The British, Russians and the United States of America together helped in ways invaluable to each other.

Britain was never going to surrender under Churchill and as soon as the battle of Britain began, Germans were losing far more planes than they could make, and yet the British were making far more than we lost. Smarter still, the British led the Nazis to believe that we were weak to keep them attacking and thus lose even more planes. Air superiority was key.

We had run out of money though, and the Americans industrial might was the nail in the coffin for Germany. The germans needed to attack and crush Russia to have any chance of still winning and we all know how that went. Russia entering the war shortened the war considerably and the vast majority of the action was on the eastern front.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-15 13:15:04
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I’m not sure who contributed to WW2, but i am pretty it was Little Boy and Fat Boy that ended it.
fixed for accuracy.

Ummm,we had already won in Europe before we dropped the bomb.....
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By Ruaumoko 2020-01-15 13:18:36
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I'd say World War II actually began low-key during the Spanish Civil War. Germany was able to effectively do practice runs on armored and air warfare during the Seige of Madrid and the Bombing of Guernica.

The inaction of the other European powers, largely fuelled by the fear of communism far outweighing the fear of fascism, is what emboldened the emerging Axis powers to get away with it.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 13:23:47
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Asura.Slamm said: »
Americans contributing the most is nothing but a Hollywood myth.
Highly disagree. At the very least it is not a myth.

Britain was on it's way out, you even admitted it when you stated that they ran out of money. If Germany never attacked Russia and concentrated on Britain, you would be speaking a different language today.

It was a combination of unforced errors on Hitler's part, along with British overall resistance (yes, I will give Brits their dues in staying power, but a prolonged full military assault by Germany would have done you in) and it's capitalization of Hitler's errors helped win the war for Britain.

By having America come into the war, it ended a lot sooner than if America never contributed. It would literally be a tossup on how long it would have been and how far Hitler would have been able to take over before America came into the war, and if Hitler took over too much land, it would have, most likely, prevented the US to do any damage against the Third Reich.

This is all speculative though. But history does show that Germany had momentum against the Brits up until mid 1942, when the first troops from the US started making their way to push back Germany. If Germany kept their full attention on one thing at a time, things would have turned out very differently.

That's why you don't spread out too thin.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 13:24:37
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I’m not sure who contributed to WW2, but i am pretty it was Little Boy and Fat Boy that ended it.
fixed for accuracy.

Ummm,we had already won in Europe before we dropped the bomb.....
WW2 didn't end until Japan's surrender though. Just because Germany surrendered didn't mean the war was over.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 13:27:11
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Ruaumoko said: »
I'd say World War II actually began low-key during the Spanish Civil War. Germany was able to effectively do practice runs on armored and air warfare during the Seige of Madrid and the Bombing of Guernica.

The inaction of the other European powers, largely fuelled by the fear of communism far outweighing the fear of fascism, is what emboldened the emerging Axis powers to get away with it.
Agreed. I present a counter idea that WW2 started with the annexations of various countries prior to their invasion of Poland.
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 Asura.Slamm
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By Asura.Slamm 2020-01-15 13:35:50
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
If Germany never attacked Russia and concentrated on Britain, you would be speaking a different language today.
There was no chance in hell of Hitler invading the UK, you need air superiority with that which he did not have, and would never have had. Rader is also huge, go look at the maps and you can see we saw the planes as they were leaving the german air bases.

As I said, it was all 3 countries together but the war turned the moment the battle of Britain started. The Americans supplying the British was more than enough to stop the germans.
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 Bahamut.Celebrindal
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By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-01-15 13:40:29
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
More than anything I am always annoyed that we consider the French - a country that was completely overwhelmed by insane methheads driving tanks - cowards for surrendering in a war brought about by an insanely toxic ideology that Italy went out of its way to nurture and protect when it could and should have been stamped out and then went on to be worse than useless.

It's ramifications last to this day- its the reason that French is one of the "official" languages of the United Nations. There is no reason other than the historical importance of France in Europe that they have such "preferred status".

On the subject of WW2-

1. while the average American's life was pretty normal during WW2 in terms of daily life, the losses by Americans cannot be understated. It was only through sheer numbers of men and equipment being sent from the United States to Europe that could compete with Nazi Germany...and had they merely focused on the War and not ethnic cleansing, two things would have happened: First, ALL of Germany's industrial complex and manpower would have been dedicated to the war effort, and the plethora of Jewish scientists, engineers, and business owners would have been part of that effort, not victims. This would have meant an even more effective Blitzkreig in the first 3 years of the war, pre-Barbarossa and the Eastern Front, and that likely would have overwhelmed France and Britain prior to any help arriving.

2. If America had never entered the European Theater, Russia would have eventually pushed Germany back to its own borders but likely stopped at Poland. They never had any reason to "save" France and Britain, and likely would have just moved into Eastern Europe (which did happen) but have come to terms with Germany rather than spend the troops and resources to take Germany proper...and they sure weren't using THEIR men to save Western Europe.

3. Losses in the Merchant Marine and Naval Corps for the United States during the "Liberty Ships" era of taking supplies to Britain during the peak of submarine warfare, when those wolfpacks owned the Atlantic. Over 8,000 men died in the Merchant Marine, with over 250 Liberty Ships lost along with their crew and cargo. But without the flood of ships (the Liberty Ship fleet is still the largest fleet ever created in the modern era) carrying munitions, armored vehicles, planes, and foodstuffs, Britain would have fallen, preventing even the possibility of D-Day.

4. Germany only lost due to two things: Its obsession with eliminating the Jewish population and Hitler's obsession with giving the German people victories to talk about. He couldn't stand stalemates or stagnation in the war effort- it reminded him too much of his time in the trenches of France during WWI, something he GREATLY feared re-living. Had they dedicated ALL their efforts only at a Western Front, not committed tens of thousands of troops to security in the ghettos and concentration camps, materials and transportation for those concentration camps, and eliminated a large portion of their scientific community, the would have easily overwhelmed Western Europe before America could have sent help...even with the existence of Pearl Harbor bringing them in. The War would have ended by 1942.

....bring it.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-15 13:42:57
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Asura.Yojimmbo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Scizor said: »
America supplied the majority of the mech, British had the unmatched intelligence and the Russians had the man power.
I'll give you that no one nation won the war by itself.

While Russia did have the most manpower and Allied losses, that's mainly because of the 3 nations mentioned, only Russia was effectively invaded. Germans did bomb the hell out of Brits, but never landed and fought on British soil.

And Hawaii was the only place hurt on the American side, and technically Hawaii wasn't even a state at the time, so American "technically" was never bombed at all. "Technically."

All 3 nations contributed significantly, but you can't say that they all contributed equally or equally effectively. That's impossible.
Actually both Alaska and California were attacked during WWII.
I didn't know. I learned something new today.

Actually, looking at wiki, it seems like it was off the coast and at an oil field, but damage was pretty minimal, and no loss of life.
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