Su5 Path C Vs Kenkonken Debate

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Su5 Path C vs Kenkonken Debate
 Asura.Sthrnrebel
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By Asura.Sthrnrebel 2019-03-12 13:33:43
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Can anyone provide any numerical data on how the Su5 Path C H2H would fare on a ranged puppet build versus Kenkonken? Having a debate with a friend and he thinks the Su5 would make PUP competitive on the DD scene against other REMA DDs. I was saying that since Kenkonken can't make that happen, the Su5 cannot either. All help would be greatly appreciated
 Asura.Fabiano
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By Asura.Fabiano 2019-03-12 15:19:52
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Asura.Sthrnrebel said: »
Having a debate with a friend and he thinks the Su5 would make PUP competitive on the DD scene against other REMA DDs.

Short Answer: No, it won't.


Long Answer: There are some core design flaws with PUP (and by extension BST), and generally how the game works, that is preventing PUP from competing on even footing with other damage dealers in a typical endgame setting (ex: Dyna[D], Omen, HELMS).

For starters, buff mechanics -- BRD songs have no effect on our pets, while a select number of COR rolls buff ONLY pets, and the only GEO bubbles pets can take advantage of is debuff bubbles (so no double-stacking such as +attack and -defense). Buffing jobs have a limited amount of buffs they can apply, and have to select their buffs according to the group.

This naturally just leads to conflicts when you throw a PUP in a DD party with other jobs. If the party is melee centric, you end up with buffs to super power the master and your pet ends up falling way way behind. If the party is pet centric, you end up with a super buffed Automaton, and the master ends up being incapable of dealing damage themselves (either due to danger, lack of melee buffs, or both).

So there is no in-between... In an end-game setting, where you are competing against other jobs, you're either buffing only the master or you are buffing only the pet. DRG & SMN, the other pet jobs, circumvent this issue because DRG is heavily master-oriented with very little emphasis on their pet's damage output, while SMN is the opposite, and is heavily pet-oriented with no emphasis on the master's damage. BST's, the other hybrid pet job, feel our plight in full though...


The second major design issue, is Square's complete lack of ability or knowledge in creating proper hybrid pet armor sets and accessories. Both PUP and BST desperately want to equip armor sets which enhances both the master and the pet equally, but no such equipment exists, and the equipment that does is woefully underwhelming. In order to even cap your automaton's haste, you need to make major sacrifices to the master's throughput in certain slots or vice-versa. Not to mention the current issue with weaponskill sets for the master and the pet also being completely separate, and the inability to gearswap effectively for your pet WS without hampering the masters damage or safety momentarily.

When you look at the Su5(C) fists in regards to what I wrote above, you should be able to see the problem. Path C has +Weaponskill damage and Automaton ability damage+, but there doesn't exist an instance where you need both of those simultaneously. With the way the game works right now, you are better off buying 2 Su5's, using Path A(or B) when the master is heavily buffed, and using Path C when the Automaton is buffed or Overdriving.

So tl;dr: the concept of a truly hybrid pet job (PUP & BST), where the master and pet have a 100% output potency, is currently flawed, nearly impossible, and doesn't work with the way the game functions at the moment, or with the equipment available. So until these core design issues are addressed, PUP is always going to be held back, especially compared to other super buffed REMA DD who don't need to make such sacrifices.

It isn't all doom and gloom though! PUP has lots of strengths it can lean into to make it a valuable party slot, particularly it's support-free tanking capability, respectable (but not top) damage throughput, solo ability, and safety pet strats. I just think pretending PUP can compete pound-for-pound in raw damage to other DD jobs is simply unrealistic.
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 Shiva.Siviard
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By Shiva.Siviard 2019-03-12 16:58:01
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Yeah......what he said!
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 Fenrir.Celdwn
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By Fenrir.Celdwn 2019-03-12 17:53:36
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wait... puppetmasters hit stuff?
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By sharazisspecial 2019-03-12 19:47:47
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Quote:
Fabiano

Would of agreed 100% pre-patch
But the new attachments have buffed Overdrive alot. After testing Fire, Wind,Light Inhibitor Arcuballista with Su5 path 3. It did up to three times my regular damage with no cor rolls.
Proxies -Normal damage 23k Arcuballista, Overdrive 67k Arcuballista.
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By Aerix 2019-03-12 22:29:45
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If you are DDing with the master, the Automaton is only a small part of your overall DPS, so increasing that with the Su5 isn't going to change anything significantly. KKK, on the other hand, allows both you and the maton to spam WSs and makes Stringing Pummel an absolute beast as far as HTH WSs are concerned.

Xiucoatl's master WS bonus is hardly worth mentioning in comparison--I'm not even sure if the damage bonus applies to all WS hits.

And Overdrive isn't really relevant because you typically don't melee alongside your Automaton if you are ODing (unless zerging). OD alone doesn't make us competitive with other REMA DDs because the issues with WS spam blocking maton WSs persists if you have Inhibitors or Speedloaders equipped. Without Inhibitors OD isn't nearly as powerful as it can be.
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By sharazisspecial 2019-03-13 09:05:34
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Not enough post patch numbers or even Rank 25 Xiucoatl wielders to write it off yet. Also I don't think super buffing Xiucoatl is way to go.

Should compare a pet party with Rank 25 Xiucoatl against a Super buffed party with Kenkoken.
Also compare Smn to Xiucoatl 25 with new attachments.
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By Foxfire 2019-03-13 09:46:47
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The original argument was "against other REMA DDs". Fabiano's post and Aerix's addenda clarify that scenario as OP requested. Nobody's trying to justify Xiucoatl's use except you.
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By sharazisspecial 2019-03-13 10:02:57
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Quote:
The original argument was "against other REMA DDs". Fabiano's post and Aerix's addenda clarify that scenario as OP requested. Nobody's trying to justify Xiucoatl's use except you.
I'm sorry, I did go off topic...
I do agree with others who answered that specific question.

Is KKK viable against other REMA DDs? No
So why would one even think that the pet focused Xiucoatl would outperform a master focused weapon in a super buffed party.

Should PUP even be trying to compete for a spot in super buff REMA DD party in the first place. If they can't compare even while wielding the best master focused weapon.
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 Shiva.Spathaian
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By Shiva.Spathaian 2019-03-13 10:04:02
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Fox is right, we're comparing against REMA DDs. We have to look at both 2HR and normal conditions.

Like Aerix said, OD is blocked in a party by WS spam and the need to use inhibitors to really get the most damage out, in a pet party sure it's much better but at that point the only real REMA DD we'd be competing with is SMN, which comparing to a single REMA is kind of moot.

In a setting where both the automaton and the master are fighting, super buffed (or buffed in general) master is going to be the largest damage and the puppet will always fall behind by a good margin, even with the new attachments that gap is not much smaller, and only gets worse because in a situation like that you end up with the same problem as overdrive, WS spam causing issues with automaton AI, which is just as much as a problem because a lot of the the bonus damage you get with both attacking is really from the skillchains you can create.

In a situation where you're not buffed? Sure the damage of master and automaton are going to be much closer, but that's not a competitive REMA situation.

Neither Kenkonken or Xiucoatl are going to bridge the glaring gaps of damage between master and automaton until we get something that some lets the automaton catch up properly in a buffed situation and without doing that it's just... not going to be as competitive as it should be with other REMA jobs.
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