Max Theoretical DPS?

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Max theoretical DPS?
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-19 23:16:00
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Which job, in perfect gear and full buffs, could output the highest theoretical DPS in two scenarios:
1) Able to SC with self (no one else spamming WS)
2) EVERYONE spamming so no SC dmg counts

Let's say on something like Warder of Courage (or equivalent stats, no mechanics to worry about). Again, perfect setup for each (so basically a spreadsheet battle). Purely out of curiosity, no need to bring any ePeen in here as we all know this wouldn't transfer over to the game..
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-19 23:38:05
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You have to be more specific.

If the battle is short enough War will win solely because of MS.

If the battle is longer Sam will win.

both scenarios

If everything is equivalent, Smn completely obliterates both put together.
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-19 23:44:05
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Average damage, so no bonus for things like MS or penalty for short fights needing to get AM up etc.. let's say one hour fight length (1 use of SPs). I know that is hard/impossible to do, but we have to even things out for everyone but SMN somehow, right?
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By Odin.Drakenv 2018-02-19 23:52:50
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Sockfoot said: »
Average damage, so no bonus for things like MS or penalty for short fights needing to get AM up etc.. let's say one hour fight length (1 use of SPs). I know that is hard/impossible to do, but we have to even things out for everyone but SMN somehow, right?
Monk ftw
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By iambatman3131 2018-02-19 23:59:35
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lolmnk
 Asura.Cicion
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By Asura.Cicion 2018-02-20 00:24:25
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1 I'm gonna say Lionheart Run with perf buffs esp on warder of courage they will never be stunned with proper runs. Torcleaver Drk Wars and Sams are up there to
2 This is hard, anyjob that Resos even more if you can get enough mp refresh with HQ Raetics to counter the mp drain. Sam and Dragoon all kinda equal i think. Mabey Thf and Dnc Rudras/Kleos hits decently hard and more 10% weaponskill damage gear that get added will close the gap more. Tizona spamming Mythic WS is up there 2 or Sequence savage spamming i recall CdC being kinda meh on WoC (Assuming high Crit def traits). Nins are kinda up there with Blu.
Just my thoughts
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By Afania 2018-02-20 01:05:31
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Asura.Cicion said: »
esp on warder of courage they will never be stunned with proper runs.


Even with nerfed vex/attunement, A properly organized woc pt will never stun any not-RUN DD, just saying.


Sockfoot said: »
Let's say on something like Warder of Courage

Its a 2 min fight, so MS WAR has huge advantage over the others.
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-20 01:10:07
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To clarify, I said WoC just for stat purposes for spreadsheets and what not, to keep people from talking about DPS on fodder (and hence the 'no mechanics to worry about')
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-02-20 01:10:51
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This theoretical scenario is too theoretical. How you gonna say no MS from WAR. that's the Bread and Butter right there. In that case SMN is worthless there as well. My money is on SAM or WAR 5 stepping into dps heaven.
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-20 01:11:56
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
This theoretical scenario is too theoretical. How you gonna say no MS from WAR. that's the Bread and Butter right there. In that case SMN is worthless there as well. My money is on SAM or WAR 5 stepping into dps heaven.
Where did I say no MS?^^

Sockfoot said: »
Average damage, so no bonus for things like MS or penalty for short fights needing to get AM up etc.. let's say one hour fight length (1 use of SPs). I know that is hard/impossible to do, but we have to even things out for everyone but SMN somehow, right?
No *bonus* for MS, as in the "bonus" from a fight that is <= the length of MS, the same situation that would put someone who needed AM3 up at a disadvantage.. maybe that wasn't clear enough, seemed like it to me, sorry.
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By Afania 2018-02-20 01:13:18
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Sockfoot said: »
To clarify, I said WoC just for stat purposes for spreadsheets and what not, to keep people from talking about DPS on fodder (and hence the 'no mechanics to worry about')


So are you saying attack Uncapped scenario?
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 01:15:19
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I think we need to define "theoretical".
Which "practical" aspects are you leaving out?
Because if we're considering scenario 2 and considering practical aspects, on many fights it's RUN that will probably come above other jobs, with capped buffs.

RUN has higher survivability compared to most DD jobs even in full DD gear and has so much defensive stats/meva/mdb he can stack before the fight that will make him immune (or less susceptible) to be killed or even only affected by debuffs.

Even 2 less seconds where you're not paralyzed, amnesiad or stunned is 2 more seconds where you're spamming incredibly high damage Resolutions.
If you consider these practical aspects RUN is probably on the top I would say.


If the fight is short enough WAR with SP1 and SP2 is probably on top but when you consider either slightly longer fights or the debuff aspects I was talking about, I think it falls behind RUN.
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-20 01:17:45
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Afania said: »
So are you saying attack Uncapped scenario?
Yes

Asura.Sechs said: »
I think we need to define "theoretical".
Which "practical" aspects are you leaving out?
Because if we're considering scenario 2 and considering practical aspects, on many fights it's RUN that will probably come above other jobs, with capped buffs.

RUN has higher survivability compared to most DD jobs even in full DD gear and has so much defensive stats/meva/mdb he can stack before the fight that will make him immune (or less susceptible) to be killed or even only affected by debuffs.

Even 2 less seconds where you're not paralyzed, amnesiad or stunned is 2 more seconds where you're spamming incredibly high damage Resolutions.
If you consider these practical aspects RUN is probably on the top I would say.


If the fight is short enough WAR with SP1 and SP2 is probably on top but when you consider either slightly longer fights or the debuff aspects I was talking about, I think it falls behind RUN.
No mechanics. Consider the fight against a test dummy with stats equivalent to those of WoC and all the buffs you would be able to get.
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By Afania 2018-02-20 01:29:19
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I think we need to define "theoretical".


This, nothing is defined by the OP and it's near impossible to say.

Not hitting fodder: attack not capped? If that's the case the RUN will fall behind other 2h since it's only really really good when attack is capped and ideally have warcry bonus up.

How long does the fight last? 1 min? 3 min? 10 min? Certain jobs gets huge advantage in shorter fights (WAR), without defining the length of the fight it's very hard to tell.

Do you get to prep buff before popping? Certain job with very high dps ceiling, such as DRK, needs a lot more prep time such as MB drain 3 9999 HP for soul eater, absorb stats, and get hit for scarlet delirium 50% dmg bonus. In practice we don't always get opportunity to activate everything because circumstances.

And do you get MP buffs or refill MP? Is raetic algol allowed? That would change things too.

So yeah, you get it. FFXI today doesn't work that way, there are too many factors that would affect DPS.
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By clearlyamule 2018-02-20 01:37:15
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sam with Yaegasumi up vs mob that spams tp moves for it to avoid awhile also riding all the buffs and multistepping for approximately infinity dps
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By Sylph.Citrelautame 2018-02-20 01:39:06
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Make it less complicated then:

Test Dummy, stats = WoC
Duration 10min
Unlimited Mob HP
No tp moves/Mob doesn't attack back
Game rules apply (max damage per hit 99,999, attack/haste caps, etc)
All buffs active on entrance.
You may select 6 buffs from any other job. (3x cor, or cor/geo/brd, w/e is perfect world for that job) geo debuffs count as one buff

It's not hard to see what the OP is going for
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By Quizzy 2018-02-20 01:56:21
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Sylph.Citrelautame said: »

It's not hard to see what the OP is going for

This place makes Rain Man look like The Dude.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2018-02-20 02:01:52
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clearlyamule said: »
sam with Yaegasumi up vs mob that spams tp moves for it to avoid awhile also riding all the buffs and multistepping for approximately infinity dps

funnily enough, if we want to go back in time then the maximum theoretical DPS actually did approach infinity the closer you got to 0 delay! though with the tools available back then you would never have been able to get very close to there. still impressive to watch old videos of rune chopper drks demolishing ***tho.
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By geigei 2018-02-20 02:23:41
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AC smn, someone had to.
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By Ragnarok.Zeig 2018-02-20 02:36:52
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Sylph.Citrelautame said: »
It's not hard to see what the OP is going for
But but, survivability matters.

A wise man once postulated that: "A dead DD cannot DD".

A much wiser man surmised: "Apocalypse is the best DRK weapon" (err, maybe the best DD weapon ever!)
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By Afania 2018-02-20 02:45:32
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Ragnarok.Zeig said: »
Sylph.Citrelautame said: »
It's not hard to see what the OP is going for
But but, survivability matters.

A wise man once postulated that: "A dead DD cannot DD".

A much wiser man surmised: "Apocalypse is the best DRK weapon" (err, maybe the best DD weapon ever!)


Where is your berserk love >.> Guts or bust!
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 04:14:30
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Sockfoot said: »
[
No mechanics. Consider the fight against a test dummy with stats equivalent to those of WoC and all the buffs you would be able to get.
So a theoretical fight against a dummy that doesn't fight back or debuff.
The only aspect to define at this point is "duration".
If it's ~1 min I think WAR will be on top because of SP1 and SP2.
The longer the fight lasts, the more WAR will fall behind but still mantaining a good place. Think Raetic+1 weapon spamming resolution is the best? But that too is something that only works for short fights, the more it lasts the less realistic it is to mantain the MP necessary for Raetic to work.
Do we want to consider Raetic in or exclude it for whatever reason?
I think you need to define one or multiple duration times and we can create different tier lists for each of them.

As many of us said already on a ~1 min fight I think WAR is on top, probably followed close by uhm, Lionheart RUN maybe?
Then DRK with Soul Eater but that too is another scenario, similar to the Raetic weapon one, where it's not realistic to expect it to last for longer fights. For 1 min it should be fine though.
Not sure if DRK with Soul Eater would be in second place above of RUN, probably?


Edit:
I'm talking about Scenario2 of course. In the "one DD SC damage" of scenario1 the winner would likely be SAM followed by DNC I would say.

Edit2:
You didn't specifically said it but I'm assuming you meant "max potential" so I considered a situation with capped haste, capped att and capped acc.
That's pretty easy to assume with just GEO and BRD.
It's a bit harder when it comes to COR rolls because they give pretty unique bonuses but you can't have all of them at the same time.
There is a cap of 12 buff slots shared between songs and rolls.
You can't have more than 12 of them, wether it's 11 rolls and 1 song or 10 songs and 2 rolls and so on.
Songs/Bubbles (att/acc/haste) benefit all of the jobs, well... not exactely but I'm simplifying things here.
Rolls instead benefit some jobs greatly more than others. Think about SC damage for Scenario 1 fights for instance, or Crit hit for jobs with Crit WSs, and so on.
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By Afania 2018-02-20 04:35:20
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Asura.Sechs said: »
There is a cap of 12 buff slots shared between songs and rolls.
You can't have more than 12 of them, wether it's 11 rolls and 1 song or 10 songs and 2 rolls and so on.
Songs/Bubbles (att/acc/haste) benefit all of the jobs, well... not exactely but I'm simplifying things here.
Rolls instead benefit some jobs greatly more than others. Think about SC damage for Scenario 1 fights for instance, or Crit hit for jobs with Crit WSs, and so on.

I would pick TP bonus buff over everything else once attack/acc capped and got SAM roll anyways, so meh to 3+ rolls. The DPS difference between warcry and no warcry is utterly obvious in alliance zergs for most of the jobs. Warcry is like one of the most OP buff.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 04:43:36
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Scenario 2 possible setups:

1) 1 min fight
2) 3 min fight
3) 10 min fight

Target:
WoC stats
Doesn't fight back, no parry/guard mechanics, infinite HP.


Debuffs on target:
Dia4
Idris Bolster Frailty
Idris Bolster Torpor
Feather Step lv10 (enhanced)
Saboteur Distract III


Buffs on players:
Haste 2
SV Honor March (+4)
SV Blade Madrigal
SV Sword Madrigal
SV Minuet 5
SV Minuet 4
SV Minuet 3
SV Minuet 2
Lucky Fighter's Roll (job enhanced)
Lucky Samurai's roll (job enhanced)
Lucky Rogue's Roll (job enhanced)
Lucky Tactician's Roll (enhanced)
Lucky Miser's Roll
(total of 12 buffs between songs and rolls)

This should overcap Acc and Att on all jobs no matter the gear and job traits (accuracy+, Smite, etc)

The only things excluded from this that I can think of are Boost spells, Etudes and Indi-stat bubbles , they should benefit all jobs in a pretty similar way, granted not the same, so I guess not really meaningful to include them in a comparison between jobs, I think?

Other things missing are Avatar's favors.
Namely I can think of Ifrit's DA and Ramuh's Crit.
Ifrit's would benefit any non-WAR main job more than WAR itself I think (WAR reaches the DA cap way before other jobs) and Ramuh's Crit would benefit more jobs which have no way to boost their Crit above other jobs thanks to traits or JAs.
Granted Crits shouldn't be a huge part of damage in this scenario because the white damage part should be a really small % of each job's total DPS.
I guess it's more useful for jobs who are gonna use Crit-based WS?

Did I miss any other important buff? Other than each job's self buff of course. Can't think of anything else atm.



With these conditions defined and assuming non-job-specific buffs can last for the whole duration of the fight (even 10 mins) we can create a clearer idea of a tentative tier list for each of the 3 durations.

The only part that's left to define is the duration of Raetic bonus and Soul Eater.
How much is it realistic to assume it can be mantained?
On 1 min fight for the whole duration, adding I dunno, bolster Indi Refresh, Refresh3 and Aspir Samba to the list of buffs maybe? Lol
On 3 mins I would say no more than ~33% of the duration of the fight
For 10 mins fight I have no clue, but on such a long fight I don't think you should use Raetic at all and I don't think it's realistic to assume Soul Eater either.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 04:50:02
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Afania said: »
I would pick TP bonus buff over everything else once attack/acc capped and got SAM roll anyways, so meh to 3+ rolls. The DPS difference between warcry and no warcry is utterly obvious in alliance zergs for most of the jobs. Warcry is like one of the most OP buff.
Wait, is there a TP bonus roll? I'm such a dumb idiot... I could only remember Store TP, Regain TP and Save TP rolls.
Which one is the TP bonus roll?! o___o'


Edit:
Nvm you were talking about the huge TP bonus granted by WAR's warcry with merits and such. That's a huge boost but how long do we want to assume it can last?
That's 700 TP bonus to everyone for 1 minute.
If we really wanted to go crazy about it we could assume 5 WARs in a party rotating it for 100% uptime, since cooldown is 5 minutes.
Not sure, do we want to consider this? It would be an insane boost to many jobs and would, I guess, slightly deevaluate TP-related rolls.
I think considering it 100% up is no bueno. The purpose of this test is to measure job against job, and if you wanna do that you can't really have so many WARs in the same party rotating Warcry, can you?
Well of course you could use 5 mules to invite as sixth slot, rotating them to keep it up but I dunno, sounds like a stretch.
I think we should define a certain % of uptime for Warcry, which would be 100% for the first scenario (1 min duration) and less for the other two scenarios.
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By Bahadir 2018-02-20 06:51:39
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Did I miss any other important buff?
Might want to add Crystal Blessing? Its a "small" TP bonus but while we r at it...
Also not sure how viable this is against a target with this kind of stats but all the above mentioned buffs are targeting jobs with physical WS.
Id rather define the debuffs on the target and choose your own 12 buffs otherwise. As pet jobs would require other buffs and are magical/hybrid WS completely out?
With that amount of TP bonus and insane buffs sounds like a War with Cloudsplitter for example shouldnt be too far off maybe?
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 08:33:17
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Oh yeah, Crystalline Blessing ftw, completely forgot about that.

I think we were kinda leaving out pet jobs and mages? OP didn't directly say but on a hunch I thought he had melee dps in mind.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-02-20 08:40:39
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Also, we have to decide if we're planning on having the DD's gear be feasible (HQ abj gear, incredible augments), or effectively impossible even if within the game mechanics (DM augments on every slot with stuff like 3 QA, 50 atk/acc, 15 STR).
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-02-20 08:48:59
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I don't think that would constitute a major difference, in the perspective of comparing the potential of different jobs.
If we were talking about different players sure.

I mean, of course different jobs have access to different overpowered gear, but in the grand scheme of things and for the purpose of the OP's request I don't think that's a fact of primary relevance, more like a secondary aspect I'd rather say?
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