Samurai Discussion #93520123

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Samurai Discussion #93520123
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 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-27 19:05:33
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Shiva.Flionheart said: »
I was just about to quote this.

And into the txt document it goes.

I didn't notice that avatar was a gif, was getting weirded out for a sec
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-27 19:10:28
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Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
Shiva.Flionheart said: »
I was just about to quote this.

And into the txt document it goes.

I didn't notice that avatar was a gif, was getting weirded out for a sec

Huh?
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 19:12:34
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Shiva.Flionheart said: »
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
Shiva.Flionheart said: »
I was just about to quote this.

And into the txt document it goes.

I didn't notice that avatar was a gif, was getting weirded out for a sec

Huh?
Oh you
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-27 19:14:29
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lol nice
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 19:14:39
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »

But that's just it! I'm not claiming that what I'm doing or what I think is correct, and I'm certainly not saying anyone contributing is acting out of malice. All I'm saying is that that the OP, Ironguy, etc are not going to produce the results they're looking for, and that instead of compiling lists of what works for them, they should be PM'ing people who can actually do the work that needs to be done.

basically the bolded text is what the question that i so poorly laid out was trying to get at.

math is concrete, this is known. but when applied to game, or even rl scenarios, there are many other variables that math cannot account for.

in this case, the item sets in which op, ironguy, etc provided give guidelines for actual scenarios. and thats what i believe should be welcomed. their post should not be denounced because they dont meet mathematical guidelines imo. what works for them may very well work for anyone else, which is what i am trying to convey. and even math post are welcomed too, for the more analytically inclined members of the community. they would both be valid contributions.

sorry for delayed posts, rather busy running around with my woman whacking slime nms.
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 Fenrir.Eneas
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By Fenrir.Eneas 2011-08-27 19:15:44
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ok, noob question in regard to samurai.

Is it still worth to go /drg?

I recently levelled sam for the sake of it and still in the skillup process (300ish).

I used to read Rukenshin LJ and a couple of years ago i was under the impression that sam/drg was the way to go.

pls can someone explain the pro and con of both subs?
cheers.
 Leviathan.Novax
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By Leviathan.Novax 2011-08-27 19:16:34
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Sam/war is the way to go as far as I know.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-27 19:20:19
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It's Berserk (Agressor if needed) and DA vs Jumps. /DRG was mostly good for Wyvern Earring, and Acc bonus for Polearm, you don't need it to cap Haste nowadays. /WAR is the way to go.
 Fenrir.Eneas
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By Fenrir.Eneas 2011-08-27 19:21:50
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Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
It's Berserk (Agressor if needed) and DA vs Jumps. /DRG was mostly good for Wyvern Earring, and Acc bonus for Polearm, you don't need it to cap Haste nowadays. /WAR is the way to go.

ok thanks.
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 19:22:38
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Fenrir.Eneas said: »
ok, noob question in regard to samurai.

Is it still worth to go /drg?

I recently levelled sam for the sake of it and still in the skillup process (300ish).

I used to read Rukenshin LJ and a couple of years ago i was under the impression that sam/drg was the way to go.

pls can someone explain the pro and con of both subs?
cheers.

anyone feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the main allure of sam/drg was the 5% haste earring and the acc boosting job traits that accompany the sub job.

all of those things were phased out by new gear options(and for acc inside abyssea, atmas andy cruor buffs)

edit: beaten again. damn your darrka!
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2011-08-27 19:24:11
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Jumps to be able to SC with yourself.
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 19:28:58
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
Why is it when opposition surfaces in a thread, automatically its referred to as trolling? I think people need to learn what trolling is.

pretty much the one and only time i'm going to agree with draylo

dodu is absolutely right that the first five or so initial posts there are speculation, for the fact that none of those posts provide number figures of which we refer to as mathematics, something which the game runs on entirely (drop rates, damage dealt, damage taken, even merely "simplistic" things such as skill up rates and so on)

while i've never been able to provide such a thing with my claims, i also take intensive consideration and thought into my posts (formerly known as opinion, since it can be classified as a guess after all in this case), and albeit, while over the years i've became less and less stubborn and more accepting of things that appear to be false at first glance, you've at least got to admit that even for a guy that speculates, the opinion i throw out is at least worth something

i mean, really, throw someone with the numbers at my earlier post, and i'm certain at worst i'm not too far off; as of late, my only truly debatable justification i'd personally like to know of is the "solid" difference between six-hit and five-hit, because while masamune loses a grip (2% double attack), ammunition (9.5 atk) head (2% haste), earring (5 atk 4acc or 10 atk) "body" per se (3% critical hit rate and 4% double attack), and ring (3 atk, 6 acc and 2% triple attack), i'd be surprised to hear it's that much more behind the six-hit

the main contradicting thing i'm seeing there is that by using juogi (the ideal six-hit body, or at least i'm fairly certain), you're then back to pretty much neutral levels of attack and accuracy during the tp phase, leaving the 2% haste, 3% critical hit rate, 6% double attack and 2% triple attack difference, but also note ikishoten hasso zanshin's rate being 2.5% higher with the five-hit

personally, i think it's silly to really go and say six-hit is just that much more amazing because in the end (lv99), five-hit's going to be the way to go through and through regardless, since there's bound to be better store tp (and haste) options along the way, but i digress, for this is the now
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-27 19:33:03
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Odin.Dirtyfinger said: »
Jumps to be able to SC with yourself.
sbarro superhero yo
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 19:39:33
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Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
It's Berserk (Agressor if needed) and DA vs Jumps. /DRG was mostly good for Wyvern Earring, and Acc bonus for Polearm, you don't need it to cap Haste nowadays. /WAR is the way to go.

/drg with a polearm was largely lacking, for the initial backing/reasoning behind /drg was to abuse the extra 5(3)% haste and 5 acc you could gain while using a great katana and gekko particularly, due to berserk being much, much less relevant than what it's normally perceived as, for the fact that gekko has that ridiculous attack boost

so now, not only does berserk boost both the ideal, relevant weapon skills for the job, but you're also only 1.56% haste shy of the cap these days as well (compared to back when when the best you could get as /war was 23%, and even then the 22% setup was generally more favored)

in short, /drg is thoroughly dead sadly, though it still makes for a cool ballista sub :D
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 19:40:27
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Quote:
math is concrete, this is known. but when applied to game, or even rl scenarios, there are many other variables that math cannot account for.
If math can't account for them, why are you calling them variables? A simulation is as accurate as you want it to be, it just takes more effort to reach a greater level of accuracy.

My problem is when advice is offered with little to no mathematical support. I'm not suggesting that you become intimately familiar with the equations, even if they are only on a high school algebra level and relatively quick to work through, just that you be able to back up numbers reasonably well if you're going to put forward advice. If you can't, have a source you can reference instead and make sure it's up to date.

I'm not crazy nitpicky about setups in general, only when optimization comes up. If it's within a few %, whatever, if I know an improvement I'll mention it and move on. Ideal setups have a concrete answer though so I tend to come down harder when these kinds of discussions come up.

Every setup "works" to a greater or lesser degree and I don't deny that. I'm not going to pretend I play a job in a perfectly optimal manner at all times and I've actually worked to account for that margin of error when designing my setups. Most of the math the game runs on can be simulated without much trouble if you passed high school algebra, and it's not as time-consuming as some would make it out to be. Even TP gain can be approximated reasonably well without a strong grasp of statistics.

I've wandered all over the place by now and I'm not entirely sure I've answered the question so I'll just say I'm ok with posting ideas but I prefer they be backed up. I'm not going to tell someone to simply stop posting unless their advice is outright terrible instead of not quite optimal.
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 Fenrir.Eneas
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By Fenrir.Eneas 2011-08-27 19:45:45
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Pandemonium.Ironguy said: »
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
It's Berserk (Agressor if needed) and DA vs Jumps. /DRG was mostly good for Wyvern Earring, and Acc bonus for Polearm, you don't need it to cap Haste nowadays. /WAR is the way to go.

/drg with a polearm was largely lacking, for the initial backing/reasoning behind /drg was to abuse the extra 5(3)% haste and 5 acc you could gain while using a great katana and gekko particularly, due to berserk being much, much less relevant than what it's normally perceived as, for the fact that gekko has that ridiculous attack boost

so now, not only does berserk boost both the ideal, relevant weapon skills for the job, but you're also only 1.56% haste shy of the cap these days as well (compared to back when when the best you could get as /war was 23%, and even then the 22% setup was generally more favored)

in short, /drg is thoroughly dead sadly, though it still makes for a cool ballista sub :D

Thanks Iron :D
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-27 19:49:17
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Pandemonium.Ironguy said: »
i mean, really, throw someone with the numbers at my earlier post, and i'm certain at worst i'm not too far off; as of late, my only truly debatable justification i'd personally like to know of is the "solid" difference between six-hit and five-hit for, because while masamune loses a grip (2% double attack), ammunition (9.5 atk) head (2% haste), earring (5 atk 4acc or 10 atk) "body" per se (3% critical hit rate and 4% double attack), and ring (3 atk, 6 acc and 2% triple attack), i'd be surprised to hear it's that much more behind the six-hit

the main contradicting thing i'm seeing there is that by using juogi (the ideal six-hit body, or at least i'm fairly certain), you're then back to pretty much neutral levels of attack and accuracy during the tp phase, leaving the 2% haste, 3% critical hit rate, 6% double attack and 2% triple attack difference, but also note ikishoten hasso zanshin's rate being 2.5% higher with the five-hit

personally, i think it's silly to really go and say six-hit is just that much more amazing because in the end (lv99), five-hit's going to be the way to go through and through regardless, since there's bound to be better store tp (and haste) options along the way
It was... 1~1.5% in capped hitrate situations depending on how close to capped cRatio you are I think, if only getting Haste and Hasso. Like I said, almost identical. Marches push the 6-hit further ahead. There's also accuracy like I mentioned (6-hit gets to do things like Ace's -> Ryuga with minimal loss), but your case is slightly different since you can also go Masa -> Amano the moment accuracy becomes an issue. Unkai +2 ended up having an edge over Juogi when I compared them.

Potential gains in self-SCs were not considered, so there is potential to close the gap. I usually don't add that in since it basically requires you to have no more than 2 people on the mob, at which point other considerations may be in play in which case I'm simulating something completely different.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5-hit became ideal down the line, but right now 6-hit is at worst ~equal while maintaining greater flexibility. Also worth considering is more DA/TA/QA/Zanshin gear down the line, which potentially balances out the gains in STP gear. Time will tell.
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 20:00:46
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when i think of six-hit as of late, i think (or rather, thought of) taking out store tp merits, putting in zanshin 5/5 for the additional 1.2% hasso zanshin, but, keeping the store tp merits in-favor of pieces like ryuga sune-ate would probably be much more ideal now that i think about it

i'd have to dig for it, since there's this one store tp merit-less setup i put together that looked impressive to me to some degree, but i'm sure it isn't noteworthy in the end, for the fact that the set i put together majorly revolved around zanshin, and with how lackluster the gear is, it's safe to assume something along the lines on 15 acc vs 1.2% hasso zanshin is a pretty clear choice

edit: here's the six-hit build i envisioned, but, there's clear flaws (such as no moonshade earring on fudo, no use of a second pyrosoul ring on fudo when able to support it, etc); those aside, it's pretty clear and easy to get the jist of it
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2011-08-27 20:16:02
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Yea keep your STP merits as they are. Off the top of my head, the Ace's/Rajas/Brutal STP combo for TP means you have complete freedom for WS gear choice.

You can use Ryuga Sune-ate if it's essential, if not then Ace's Mufflers for some Zanshin rate - but that might make a compromise in WS gear, so might need Rajas Ring in it after all.

Haven't really thought much about it recently, so you'd need to work it out for clarification.
 
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 Pandemonium.Ironguy
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-08-27 20:20:55
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katana strap 3% (pole grip beats it basically)

unkai mimikazari 2~3% (probably 2%)

unkai domaru +2 10%

ace's mufflers 3%

unkai sugemino (5%, making atheling mantle better/equal to it)


take your base zanshin rate, cut it to a fourth, boom that's your hasso zanshin rate
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-08-27 20:36:34
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Quote:
math is concrete, this is known. but when applied to game, or even rl scenarios, there are many other variables that math cannot account for.
If math can't account for them, why are you calling them variables? A simulation is as accurate as you want it to be, it just takes more effort to reach a greater level of accuracy.

My problem is when advice is offered with little to no mathematical support. I'm not suggesting that you become intimately familiar with the equations, even if they are only on a high school algebra level and relatively quick to work through, just that you be able to back up numbers reasonably well if you're going to put forward advice. If you can't, have a source you can reference instead and make sure it's up to date.

I'm not crazy nitpicky about setups in general, only when optimization comes up. If it's within a few %, whatever, if I know an improvement I'll mention it and move on. Ideal setups have a concrete answer though so I tend to come down harder when these kinds of discussions come up.

Every setup "works" to a greater or lesser degree and I don't deny that. I'm not going to pretend I play a job in a perfectly optimal manner at all times and I've actually worked to account for that margin of error when designing my setups. Most of the math the game runs on can be simulated without much trouble if you passed high school algebra, and it's not as time-consuming as some would make it out to be. Even TP gain can be approximated reasonably well without a strong grasp of statistics.

I've wandered all over the place by now and I'm not entirely sure I've answered the question so I'll just say I'm ok with posting ideas but I prefer they be backed up. I'm not going to tell someone to simply stop posting unless their advice is outright terrible instead of not quite optimal.

the term variable not only accounts for math terms but it also accounts for rationalizing that anything could happen. for example; math cannot account for a blm pulling hate with a large nuke and you not being able to land one of your hits while you are tping. nor can it account for if in that same situation you already had full tp and you hit you ws macro and all of you tp is gone because the mob is walking over to the blm.(i know there is a way to sc it so you dont use tp if your target is too far away, but some people might not know about that. i know i didnt for a while.)

and ive also lost my train of thought from going downstairs to cook breakfast for dinner. but i do understand your point of view. needing math to back something up makes said thing more valid. i appreciate veteran poster like you and many others, therefore i wouldnt like to argue with you all night.

i believe that on this forum help can come in many forms, regardless if it is backed by math or not. both are welcomed as i said earlier.

i motion that we agree to disagree.
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-08-27 20:56:32
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Basically what it has come to, someone say something, if someone doesnt agree with that person, the person who doesnt agree gets topc banned, warned, etc.

Everyone should just blindly agree, hold hands, and sing camp fire songs because we dont want anyone to disagree because MAYBE it will turn into a fight.
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 Fenrir.Niniann
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-27 21:06:42
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Bahamut.Zellc said: »
the term variable not only accounts for math terms but it also accounts for rationalizing that anything could happen. for example; math cannot account for a blm pulling hate with a large nuke and you not being able to land one of your hits while you are tping. nor can it account for if in that same situation you already had full tp and you hit you ws macro and all of you tp is gone because the mob is walking over to the blm.(i know there is a way to sc it so you dont use tp if your target is too far away, but some people might not know about that. i know i didnt for a while.)

and ive also lost my train of thought from going downstairs to cook breakfast for dinner. but i do understand your point of view. needing math to back something up makes said thing more valid. i appreciate veteran poster like you and many others, therefore i wouldnt like to argue with you all night.

i believe that on this forum help can come in many forms, regardless if it is backed by math or not. both are welcomed as i said earlier.

i motion that we agree to disagree.

I believe the point he was trying to make was something along the lines that even something like a BLM pulling hate doesn't make one set better than the other. It just means a BLM pulled hate and you're mad.

Honestly things like getting petrified, or getting paralyzed out of a hit, or blah blah blah doesn't magically make a mathematically inferior set better than the mathematically correct set.

XI is situational, but gear for a specific situation is not situational, it is fact plain and simple. Someone pulling hate isn't going to change this. :x

Edit: you can account for over-tping in your formulas, is that what you were trying to get at?

Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »
you seem to constantly come into threads and whine about this type of stuff. Have anything else to say other than complaining about the same old ***?

(see we don't agree and no chance of either of us getting banned for it so /shrug)

I think you don't understand how frustrating this is, he has every right to complain about this. I mean, I read this thread from start to finish and I just wanted to bash my head into a wall.
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-08-27 21:06:42
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I dunno, you did just use a curse word.

I like reading debates like this because I like to learn. I don't like when information is being censored because "it might hurt someones feelings"

Topic banning someone who actually has something to add, is just going to let other people with perhaps wrong info keep going about their business and giving other players bad info as well.

Thats my problem with it. And I think it needs to be dealt with in a better fashion.
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 Ragnarok.Castellano
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By Ragnarok.Castellano 2011-08-27 21:12:27
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this doesn't seem like much of a debate on sam gear sets anymore. That's too bad for us SAMs who are actually interested in the discussion this thread is supposed to be about.
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