Reisenjima T4s

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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 01:48:03
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Uhm... Saevel I apreciate the comment and I totally agree with what you said, but you make it sound like you're trying to help a newbie LS who never killed Ony.
I mean, we've been one of the first LS on the server to get Aeonics, it's not like we don't know how to deal with that big phat worm xD

Silence was one of the suggested strategies in the beginning because there were people claiming he couldn't swap mode when he was silenced. As such, it was suggested to silence him towards the end to speed up the process at low HP.
That too never proved to be true for us, even when silenced he managed to swap mode between earth and fire and it was actually even more annoying because you wouldn't see him casting fire/earth spells and hence unable to tell its current mode.
After those first attempts of course we never tried the silence way anymore :D
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-02-23 01:52:01
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Silence was one of the suggested strategies in the beginning because there were people claiming he couldn't swap mode when he was silenced.

You made it sound like you were still silencing him, hence me saying that. And in general it's never profitable to silence the big NM's anyway because it just cause's them to use their annoying TP moves more often.
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 01:57:50
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Nono, sorry for the confusion, we stopped once we saw he could still swap mode. We're talking about aeons ago, it was probably after our first kill.

*IF* the "silence = can't swap mode anymore" thing was actually true, then yes I'd say it could be situationally convenient to silence him towards the end, but given how that's now how things are of course Silence is a big no-no because of what we've said so far ;)
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By Odin.Taffy 2017-02-23 09:29:03
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
Odin.Taffy said: »
Shiva.Spynx said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Onychophora physical evasion is so low it leaves me wondering if it has similarly low magic evasion. Either way its physical evasion is so laughable it seems like you could use melee and stick to weaponskills that don't skillchain (no need for SATA). I could even see a solo DD pulling it off.

We always did Ony with melee as it's just easier for a melee to time damage spikes compared to nukes (especially if SC is involved). Its evasion wasn't that crazy pre-update but now it's just a joke. The only annoying part is the massive stat- that will make your WS do little dmg but with competent DDs and some luck with fire/earth switches, it's a pretty quick and easy fight.

We did Ony with the Erinys method and it was just as easy.

So basically tactician+lullaby and just watch for casting modes? Should work fine but feel it would be slower than melee it fulltime and watch for absorb TP moves/magic modes (probably since we bring an army so it has like twice the HP it should have so need a lot of damage)

Tacticians / Lullaby / Wing Rotation. With 17 people we did it in < 15 mins. And that was with a bunch of thf's whos gear was not up to par.
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 15:34:46
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Did Vinipata Mage style. My god what a pain, I confirm he's still my most hated NM in Reisen.
Won with like 5 mins left...

Here is the setup we used:
1x RUN
1x WHM
1x BRD
1x RDM
1x mule non-used GEO (kept Dunna Focus up for RDM and BRD)
1x SCH
4x BLM
2x GEO (Idris)
1x COR

Was a pain with him going into Raksha ALWAYS at the wrong times. We basically kept a single debuff on him, Fire Threnody.
Frazzle was a major pain to stick, MAJOR. To the point we think we won't bring RDM again on Vini. Even with Dunna Focus, Idris Languor and Dark Threnody II, it was a pain to land it.
Damage with Fire Threnody II was low but okaysh. With Bolster up it was super fine.
COR was using Warlock's and Wizard's

We brought him to 50% to proc astral flow (used one Bolster and Tab), at that point adds popped, and we kept doing as much damage as we could until we wiped, which happened at 39%ish. We kept him down with Dia until we were ready to engage again, and we lost like 2-3 mins because someone failed, but w/e.
After wipe BRD soulvoiced to give March / Int / Int / Balladx2 on Mages, then Slept 4 adds, then Fire threnody 2 (SV).
We then lost more time because he decided to go into raksha, yai.
At this point we used second Bolster and killed him fast.

Kinda cheap strategy? I dunno, but it's sorta the same we've been alwyas using on Vini since start.
So to answer the big question: is it doable with this strat even after the patch? Yes it is, but Fire Threnody was accessory before, kinda mandatory now.
Also without Idrises uhmmm... would be harder I bet.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-02-23 15:43:35
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Ok time to post funny shell urban myth time. When we first switched to a melee setup on sand worm, I became RDM for our shells setup. One of or first runs the *** sat at around 15% in Stone mode for almost 8 minutes as our time melted. Our of sheer frustration, I cast 3-5 quick succession Fire I-II spells. The punk switched. Ever since then, I've oddly encountered about about an 80%success rate doing this on 5 runs. I can understand the urge to call ***,but considering it does zilch for damage, costs me no time, and has worked more than not, I keep doing it out of habit. Figured time to share this quack hypotheses to have it blasted down.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 16:13:27
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Had one attempt on Teles.
Same setup as for Vvinipata I posted above, swap BRD with PUP.

Frazzle3 cound land okaysh, not super easy but okaysh. Problem was sorta the dispel she was resiting a lot, also she was super Clasarch spammy. This happened to us another time months ago, not sure what causes this to the AI, she was literally doing hardly anything that was NOT Clasarch Call, annoying.
Damage was super fine with Bolster up at start, once bolster dropped damage was uh... random. Sometimes death was hitting for close to full damage, sometimes for 5k.
Frazzle randomly dropping might be one of the cause but it can't be the only culprit here.
Haven't tried bringing a BRD but I don't really see Dark Threnody sticking even with Frazzle up, Light Thren before, and NiTro.
Part of our issues though I have to admit were on the fact she was spamming Clasarch way more than she normally does... Also we were tired and the SCH wasn't dispelling nor landing Helix.

Not sure we gonna try Mage setup on Teles again, next time I think we will try meleeburn
(our first melee burn, yai!)
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-02-23 16:26:30
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Had one attempt on Teles.
Same setup as for Vvinipata I posted above, swap BRD with PUP.

Frazzle3 cound land okaysh, not super easy but okaysh. Problem was sorta the dispel she was resiting a lot, also she was super Clasarch spammy. This happened to us another time months ago, not sure what causes this to the AI, she was literally doing hardly anything that was NOT Clasarch Call, annoying.
Damage was super fine with Bolster up at start, once bolster dropped damage was uh... random. Sometimes death was hitting for close to full damage, sometimes for 5k.
Frazzle randomly dropping might be one of the cause but it can't be the only culprit here.
Haven't tried bringing a BRD but I don't really see Dark Threnody sticking even with Frazzle up, Light Thren before, and NiTro.
Part of our issues though I have to admit were on the fact she was spamming Clasarch way more than she normally does... Also we were tired and the SCH wasn't dispelling nor landing Helix.

Not sure we gonna try Mage setup on Teles again, next time I think we will try meleeburn
(our first melee burn, yai!)
Wonder if this is some mechanic to do with While taking an action lower resist, while in between action higher resist or some crap like that, truth be told over ever fought Teles 5 or 6 times and won 2 of those. So no sample size to even know anything from just guessing
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-02-23 16:28:06
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Teles is MUCH easier melee burn, just be sure your melee's include people who can randomly make darkness or distortion as those can also proc her. We like to mix Fudo / CDC / Resolution / Savage together which results in enough random SC's to proc her out of most of her SP modes.

If your doing mage based then try the occasional distortion SC + blizzard MB, she's heavily light / wind based and gets proced often from Ice damage. Never seen death proc her but seen lots of distortions proc her.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-02-23 16:39:02
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Don't really see much difference in vini, personally.

BLM BLM BLM BLM GEO GEO

PLD BRD WHM RUN COR SCH (pld unnecessary if you have a run tank, mine was just a gambit/rayke ***)

~6min with raksha stance up from like 95% until death, used super revits/cor ja to keep gambit/rayke up pretty near the whole time and was still doing ~10% per volley in raksha(firaja/fire6 from each blm, other mages didn't nuke)

do need fire threnody2, it dropped near the end and damage was night/day
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 16:42:46
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Don't really see much difference in vini, personally.
What me and my BLM friends noticed is that Fire Threnody II was making a quite clearly noticeable difference when it was up or down.
Before it was kinda irrelevant (maybe this is because Focus/Languor were capping to 95% macc, or something? At least with Idris)

Without Fire Threnody 2 damage was definitely lower than our average before, altough not completely utter ***. With Fire Thren 2 up it was more or less the same.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-02-23 17:32:24
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Don't really see much difference in vini, personally.
What me and my BLM friends noticed is that Fire Threnody II was making a quite clearly noticeable difference when it was up or down.
Before it was kinda irrelevant (maybe this is because Focus/Languor were capping to 95% macc, or something? At least with Idris)

Without Fire Threnody 2 damage was definitely lower than our average before, altough not completely utter ***. With Fire Thren 2 up it was more or less the same.

Dumb question are you forcing the stance switch with enfeebles? Really effects the magic damage, and now I'm sure can't just blast thru it.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-02-23 17:38:35
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you definitely can just blast through it, that's what i said in last post
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-02-23 17:40:56
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
you definitely can just blast through it, that's what i said in last post


Damn, I stand corrected. Always saw a definitive difference in numbers between stances with 3 BLMs nuking so always felt it worth getting it to switch stances.
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-02-23 18:30:54
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Dumb question are you forcing the stance switch with enfeebles? Really effects the magic damage, and now I'm sure can't just blast thru it.
Thought I talked aplenty about how he used to go into Raksha (wrong one) at the worst times? :P
But yeah we were forcing swap to Yaksha qite regularly :)

With Bolster up or Rayke/Gambit it hardly matters, with them down we could notice a difference of course.
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-02-24 21:38:35
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Probably stupid question but tonight we realized that dmg was perfectly fine on Vini with non-bolster Idris Languor/Focus+Threnody+Frazzle3 but once it changed stance it got pretty bad without Frazzle(we had to use ES to land it). Since according to bgwiki you can force it into Yaksha Stance using an automaton tank(no buffs), why aren't people trying that with full debuffs and fast kills? I realize puppet is hard to position but would make it much easier so I'm probably missing something.

Is it just that most good ls can kill with 1 bolster so there is no need to frazzle at all?

Thanks!
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By Jumeya 2017-02-24 21:50:54
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
Probably stupid question but tonight we realized that dmg was perfectly fine on Vini with non-bolster Idris Languor/Focus+Threnody+Frazzle3 but once it changed stance it got pretty bad without Frazzle(we had to use ES to land it). Since according to bgwiki you can force it into Yaksha Stance using an automaton tank(no buffs), why aren't people trying that with full debuffs and fast kills? I realize puppet is hard to position but would make it much easier so I'm probably missing something.

Is it just that most good ls can kill with 1 bolster so there is no need to frazzle at all?

Thanks!

You cannot remove the Doom effect on automatons, you can on a player. That being said, Vinni himself is otherwise not a threat to automatons and works great as co-tank
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By Sylph.Oraen 2017-02-24 21:59:58
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Not to mention the unbelievably large benefit a RUN tank brings to magic setups. Gambit and Rayke are colossal damage boosts.
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By Lakshmi.Geneyus 2017-02-24 22:05:25
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When you tank with a puppet you don't deal with doom. The point is that you are trying to keep it in Yaksha stance by not having anyone with buffs in range.

This is the strat we've used in the past. It can still use Raksha stance but we've stunned it (and the hate reset moves). Haven't tried since the update.
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By Bahamut.Sephiran 2017-02-25 03:51:17
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Ok time to post funny shell urban myth time. When we first switched to a melee setup on sand worm, I became RDM for our shells setup. One of or first runs the *** sat at around 15% in Stone mode for almost 8 minutes as our time melted. Our of sheer frustration, I cast 3-5 quick succession Fire I-II spells. The punk switched. Ever since then, I've oddly encountered about about an 80%success rate doing this on 5 runs. I can understand the urge to call ***,but considering it does zilch for damage, costs me no time, and has worked more than not, I keep doing it out of habit. Figured time to share this quack hypotheses to have it blasted down.

Well, conversely using magic setup, I can confirm that he goes into fire mode from earth mode more readily if you are doing magic to him. I've even seen him him do earth nukes twice in a row below 50% when we were doing nothing to him.
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By Bahamut.Lexouritis 2017-02-25 06:49:25
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Don't waste your time nuking/helixing this anymore
From about 2 weeks Ago:

Onycophora Post update:

AG Tupsi SCH had trouble/landing capping Helix with focus/mal/int/lang entrusted acumen, warlocks/wizards.

Bring a BRD or RDM. (they were both very well geared)

RDM will have more issues landing Frazzle than BRD landing Threnody. Have them Sub BLM if u take a RDM. Same for the BRD.

BRD reported 2/3rd resist rate without N/T E/S on threnody.

This one gave us more trouble, as we had to break the ally down to 3 groups of 8, and were tired as hell, and had a lot of derps unrelated to the latest patch in 2 of the groups. 2/3 Wins went down to the last 3-4mins, the other was about 22mins.

Like looking at paint dry up on a wall~



Best Setup we found THAT we used today:

1)Tank + Healer

2) SCH SCH GEO GEO BRD COR

Focus/Mal, Int/Lang, entrust acumen, warlock/wizard, Etudes/Threnody. Non Tupsi was hitting for 14k-18k+ with 2 Idris.

Without idris, still easily capping Helix on days that were not iceday. Nukes were co,plete crap on anything not a detonation SC. We did not bring BLMs in any of the groups, but assuming the BRD can land dark Threnody, might not be a bad idea to do so for juicy deaths.


Melee this instead: One of our SCHS (who has BLU) Just triboxed it BLU, GEO, RUN. Savage Blade all day!


~Bunch o Edits
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By Shiva.Arislan 2017-02-25 08:04:36
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Bahamut.Lexouritis said: »
Melee this instead: One of our SCHS (who has BLU) Just triboxed it BLU, GEO, RUN. Savage Blade all day!

Like probably people have mentioned before, post-update if you have the ability to DD it, you should definitely be DDing it. It's by far the path of least resistance.

Mage strats still work... but they require more or less a perfect support regime AND better INT/MND/Macc augs AND people being more focused/competent than before.
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By Odin.Praxio 2017-02-25 09:13:02
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Bahamut.Sephiran said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Ok time to post funny shell urban myth time. When we first switched to a melee setup on sand worm, I became RDM for our shells setup. One of or first runs the *** sat at around 15% in Stone mode for almost 8 minutes as our time melted. Our of sheer frustration, I cast 3-5 quick succession Fire I-II spells. The punk switched. Ever since then, I've oddly encountered about about an 80%success rate doing this on 5 runs. I can understand the urge to call ***,but considering it does zilch for damage, costs me no time, and has worked more than not, I keep doing it out of habit. Figured time to share this quack hypotheses to have it blasted down.

Well, conversely using magic setup, I can confirm that he goes into fire mode from earth mode more readily if you are doing magic to him. I've even seen him him do earth nukes twice in a row below 50% when we were doing nothing to him.
That's partly because he gains access to higher tier spells.
Bahamut.Lexouritis said: »
Don't waste your time nuking/helixing this anymore
From about 2 weeks Ago:

Onycophora Post update:

AG Tupsi SCH had trouble/landing capping Helix with focus/mal/int/lang entrusted acumen, warlocks/wizards.

Bring a BRD or RDM. (they were both very well geared)

RDM will have more issues landing Frazzle than BRD landing Threnody. Have them Sub BLM if u take a RDM. Same for the BRD.

BRD reported 2/3rd resist rate without N/T E/S on threnody.

This one gave us more trouble, as we had to break the ally down to 3 groups of 8, and were tired as hell, and had a lot of derps unrelated to the latest patch in 2 of the groups. 2/3 Wins went down to the last 3-4mins, the other was about 22mins.

Like looking at paint dry up on a wall~



Best Setup we found THAT we used today:

1)Tank + Healer

2) SCH SCH GEO GEO BRD COR

Focus/Mal, Int/Lang, entrust acumen, warlock/wizard, Etudes/Threnody. Non Tupsi was hitting for 14k-18k+ with 2 Idris.

Without idris, still easily capping Helix on days that were not iceday. Nukes were co,plete crap on anything not a detonation SC. We did not bring BLMs in any of the groups, but assuming the BRD can land dark Threnody, might not be a bad idea to do so for juicy deaths.


Melee this instead: One of our SCHS (who has BLU) Just triboxed it BLU, GEO, RUN. Savage Blade all day!


~Bunch o Edits
YouTube Video Placeholder

People already know about using cookie cutter BLU's for melee setups and I'm surprised you still used nuke setups on Onychophora post update but here's some strategies I don't see most people using like WAR or DRK for Resolution or Savage Blade for 50k or more on both weapons skills and the tanks don't matter if you PLD or RUN because both do well on that fight with the same weapon skills and you can use this setup for all T4 but some are tricky and you need a skilled WHM COR and BRD for sleeping adds quickly as they pop on the melee burn and most of these strategies are already posted on here like months ago and on youtube and they still work.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-02-25 11:13:58
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Just want to clarify something: we don't, and haven't for 3 cycles, use a mage method. We use 2-3 DDs with appropriate support. Our typical setup is 12 man. I mentioned the odd behavior regarding me attempting to get it back into a melee friendly mode.

Any discussions of whether to mage vs. melee Ochy, Erinys, Schah at this point, after all the testimonies, is just more people getting publicity for their kills. Discussion of mage/melee of Albumen,Teles,Vini I'd say most would agree depends on the caliber of your mage's augments, your support, and possibly group size. Zerde is Zerde, I've yet to hear/see a melee attempt, but I haven't gone looking for one. If those more seasoned than I disagree with my assessment of the current state of reisen HELM,by all means trounce me. I've been wrong several times lately. But all this re-hashing of the same essential post isn't forwarding the discussion.
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By Odin.Praxio 2017-02-25 12:02:21
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Just want to clarify something: we don't, and haven't for 3 cycles, use a mage method. We use 2-3 DDs with appropriate support. Our typical setup is 12 man. I mentioned the odd behavior regarding me attempting to get it back into a melee friendly mode.

Any discussions of whether to mage vs. melee Ochy, Erinys, Schah at this point, after all the testimonies, is just more people getting publicity for their kills.
I agree with all of this part and I would also like to mention that pet setups like BST and SMN on Onychophora and Erinys etc work too.
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-02-25 12:32:47
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Just want to clarify something: we don't, and haven't for 3 cycles, use a mage method. We use 2-3 DDs with appropriate support. Our typical setup is 12 man. I mentioned the odd behavior regarding me attempting to get it back into a melee friendly mode.

Any discussions of whether to mage vs. melee Ochy, Erinys, Schah at this point, after all the testimonies, is just more people getting publicity for their kills. Discussion of mage/melee of Albumen,Teles,Vini I'd say most would agree depends on the caliber of your mage's augments, your support, and possibly group size. Zerde is Zerde, I've yet to hear/see a melee attempt, but I haven't gone looking for one. If those more seasoned than I disagree with my assessment of the current state of reisen HELM,by all means trounce me. I've been wrong several times lately. But all this re-hashing of the same essential post isn't forwarding the discussion.

I am more interested in if ppl have tried and if so WHAT did they use to try. Drk Zerg? Mnk + Formless strikes? Enspell spam? Would assume are not many ws or jobs that can match the numbers of a mage setup but I do want to know if it has been Melee burnt.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-02-25 16:43:44
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Leviathan.Brotherhood said: »
I am more interested in if ppl have tried and if so WHAT did they use to try. Drk Zerg? Mnk + Formless strikes? Enspell spam? Would assume are not many ws or jobs that can match the numbers of a mage setup but I do want to know if it has been Melee burnt.

Fair point. My criticism is more of the repetitive posts listing generic melees, same buffs, debuffs and go. That isn't helping forward discussion...at first it was important to know what worked under new circumstances, now it's just "hey! We beat XXX!"

What you mention I like because new methods for groups not succeeding under these parameters could develop. Sure, a 5-man Schah is something to be very proud of and all of us to have fun with, but it isn't helping too many. It isn't the responsibility of anyone- but those in need and develop methods should feel welcome to share them, not fear "melee is easier". It probably is for most, but if you're lacking a dedicated BRD or RDM something that for long people got by without (BRD to a lesser extent), melee becomes tougher.

Or maybe your shell has some decked out RNGs you want to use over just solid melees, so you develop strata for them. Or some great SMNs. Or fill in the blank. Can get to the point where aeonic cycle isn't a chore, but you can effectively (read: with 90% of the efficiency of ideal setup) come on your favorite job with the same rate of success, just slower? I'd take that.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-03-01 16:38:11
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Is anyone willing to do a writeup on 18man melee strategies for schah or onychophora? I've managed to kill both, but schah is messy and onychophora was using the old erinys thf+mewing setup. Rather not subject my linkshell to repeated wipes on schah or the boredom that is a second mewing NM on onycho if there's a better way to do it.

Edit: NVM on onycho, shame on me for not noticing the video on same page. Doesn't seem very fast, though.
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By Asura.Frod 2017-03-01 16:55:38
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Leviathan.Brotherhood said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Zerde is Zerde, .

I am more interested in if ppl have tried and if so WHAT did they use to try. Drk Zerg? Mnk + Formless strikes? Enspell spam? Would assume are not many ws or jobs that can match the numbers of a mage setup but I do want to know if it has been Melee burnt.

Manaburn setup involving smn:
RUN, WHM, SCH/BLM x2, BLM 1+, SMN 1+, GEO x2, RDM and/or BRD.

SMN starts fight with AF up. Everyone goes for ES stun on pop's JD. SCH#1 starts fusion skillchains after bolstered bubbles are up. SCH #2 for stunbitch. BLMs trigger proc thru bursting Fire 6, once procced, RUN pops abilities, SMN pop conduit SCH#1 pops tabula and spams SC as ifrit melts him with 99k meteor strike bursts. Properly run, a single me-tier SMN can easily break 50%+ of the HP on zerde in a 12 man setup.
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 Odin.Speedyjim
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By Odin.Speedyjim 2017-03-01 16:57:54
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Is anyone willing to do a writeup on 18man melee strategies for schah or onychophora? I've managed to kill both, but schah is messy and onychophora was using the old erinys thf+mewing setup. Rather not subject my linkshell to repeated wipes on schah or the boredom that is a second mewing NM on onycho if there's a better way to do it.

Edit: NVM on onycho, shame on me for not noticing the video on same page. Doesn't seem very fast, though.
Not 18-man but it may help you. https://youtu.be/TbvQkH3NnbU
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