[UK] Judge Orders Father To Take His Children To Church

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[UK] Judge orders father to take his children to church
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-01-27 15:50:34
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charlo999 said: »
Got a source to back this up?

I'll need some time to find the sources on the original hebrew rendition but for now how about reading up on things that were excluded or edited for the version of the bible you are more familiar with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocanonical_books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
http://www.atheismresource.com/religious-history

Perhaps others who have already looked in to this can point to some decent sources on the matter but I'll find what I can with what little time I have.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-01-27 16:39:56
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
....
Anyhow, what does this have anything to do with a judge imposing a sentence sought by neither party in a divorce proceeding? Also, I'm not nearly as familiar with UK law as US law, but don't they have similar separation of church and state, quite in spite of the Anglican Church?
Ummm... the Queen is head of the church.

They do have freedom of religion and also a religious civil war. I honestly would expect to have happened in Ireland, not the midlands.
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By charlo999 2015-01-27 18:10:40
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
charlo999 said: »
Got a source to back this up?

I'll need some time to find the sources on the original hebrew rendition but for now how about reading up on things that were excluded or edited for the version of the bible you are more familiar with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocanonical_books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
http://www.atheismresource.com/religious-history

Perhaps others who have already looked in to this can point to some decent sources on the matter but I'll find what I can with what little time I have.

Thanks for the links. went through them and found nothing factual but just theories trying to discredit.
Yes some groups have left books out, yes some have them in, yes some mistranslation has happened.
I have seen nothing factual yet that disproves the main stories of old testament and gospels. And any differing views regarding the basic values of good taught in them.
The only valid debate I've seen in scripture, is Jesus' importance between gospel and Quran and the lack of circumcision of Abraham also between them.
If you are a believer in the god of the bibles, the hardest thing to wade through, is what scriptures are false and what are real. It's warned about.
If you have any actual specific debates regarding what religious texts you think are false I'd be happy to do that.
Maybe start a thread on it.
Blanket statements like, all scriptures are man made on the basis that there are false scriptures out there, and theories how similar or dissimilar text are, or on theories on what dates they have been compiled on doesn't back up your view on a factual level.
Just for my interest, how do you think the world was created? And ongoing from that, how was life was started?
Sorry to derail again.
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By Kooljack 2015-01-27 19:02:01
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getting emo with the hate over religion= unconscious fetish with religion
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-01-27 19:11:18
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charlo999 said: »
Thanks for the links. went through them and found nothing factual but just theories trying to discredit.
You read through all 4 of those wiki's and found 0 facts? Absolutely none? Right...

charlo999 said: »
Yes some groups have left books out, yes some have them in, yes some mistranslation has happened.

There is proof however that bible was edited several times. I don't understand how anyone can put their full faith in a document that has been tampered with so much. If it was the word of god or inspired by god, why would it need to be edited? Why add to it or drop things out? Didn't god know we would need or wouldn't need that information? It should be perfect...

charlo999 said: »
I have seen nothing factual yet that disproves the main stories of old testament and gospels. And any differing views regarding the basic values of good taught in them.
And I've seen nothing that proves it. And by this, do you mean that you believe that some of the minor parts have been disproven?

charlo999 said: »
The only valid debate I've seen in scripture, is Jesus' importance between gospel and Quran and the lack of circumcision of Abraham also between them.
You know that the bible is just a remix of the Tanakh? Hell, the Tanakh is a remix of the older stories as well such as the epic of gilgamesh. History is full of these changes and edits. Religion is ever changing, just like humans change. As our values and beliefs change, our religion changes. It's pretty clear that humans made our religions to suite their needs of the time. A true religion with a perfect god would have no need for change.

charlo999 said: »
If you are a believer in the god of the bibles, the hardest thing to wade through, is what scriptures are false and what are real. It's warned about.
Why exactly do you have to wade through it? I really don't get this disconnect. I constantly hear people say just read your bible, it'll give you the answers you need. Can it not be trusted?

charlo999 said: »
If you have any actual specific debates regarding what religious texts you think are false I'd be happy to do that.
Specific religious texts that I think are false? Umm... All of them? I just think it is odd that people of these faiths find it acceptable to edit and select what passages get in or don't.

charlo999 said: »
Maybe start a thread on it.
I don't like to derail too much but this thread isn't moving in any other direction so I don't see it hurting it. I'm not really THAT interested to go start a thread over it. But I don't mind debating some over it.

charlo999 said: »
Blanket statements like, all scriptures are man made on the basis that there are false scriptures out there, and theories how similar or dissimilar text are, or on theories on what dates they have been compiled on doesn't back up your view.
Are you sure you read those links or what I wrote for that matter? While I 100% think that all scriptures are man made, I'm not claiming that the reason it was written by man is because there are false scriptures. If I was claiming that, I could just go write a scripture real quick put it in my own version of the bible and say DONE! My point is that the bible is a conglomerate of stores and works all brought together by groups of people who thought that these stories supported their views while nixing the stuff they didn't want.

But it's okay. I don't expect anyone who believes to actually be able to stand outside of their religion long enough to realize the problems with it. Rationalization is a well honed tool after all.
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By charlo999 2015-01-28 02:06:50
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I read through all 4.
3 links discribe books left out of canons. The other 1 link is a theoretical debate trying to discount scripture based on the fact through the years there have been versions that have been tampered with. And mostly goes into the notions about how and when certain texts were brought together.
You haven't given me anything specific that falsafies the main stories other than suspicion and circumstance.
The Dead Sea scrolls pretty much shows that over 1400 years not much has changed from old testement.
There have been lots of archeogical discoveries that verify the old and new testements as real in terms of its history.
I'm sure there are lots of versions of the encyclopaedia wrote with different language from different view points so it can be understood or more easily accepted worldwide. Are we to reject it based on that as false?
Again you keep on reciting your position that all texts are false.
Give me something specific to debate.

Also I'll ask again.
How do you think the world was made?
How was life started?
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By Jetackuu 2015-01-28 02:14:08
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charlo999 said: »
Again you keep on reciting your position that all texts are false.
Give me something specific to debate.

Also I'll ask again.
How do you think the world was made?
How was life started?
rather irrelevant, no?
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 03:11:49
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charlo999 said: »
There have been lots of archeogical discoveries that verify the old and new testements as real in terms of its history.
What do you mean in terms of history?

That some of the people in the Bible existed? Ok.
That miracles occurred? Ah no, no verifacation of that has occurred.

It has been verified that parts of The Odyssey and The Iliad are based on historical facts. Does that mean that sirens or cyclops were real creatures? That Greek gods and goddesses fought in the Trojan war? No.

Quote:
I'm sure there are lots of versions of the encyclopaedia wrote with different language from different view points so it can be understood or more easily accepted worldwide. Are we to reject it based on that as false?

Yes, we reject parts of the encyclopedia that are proven to be false.

Why wouldn't we? The point of an encyclopedia is to explain things, if the explanation is wrong why would you continue to reference it?

Quote:
Also I'll ask again.
How do you think the world was made?
How was life started?
The world sits on the back of a turtle, who sits on another turtle, all the way down.
The earth was built from the body of a giant.
It began with nothing but chaos until different gods and goddesses emerged.

Do you know what all of the creation stories above have in common? People throughout the ages have believed in them and some still believe them today.

Belief doesn't make it a fact. It is your right to believe in any religion you want and it is your right to try and convert people. It is other peoples right to not believe in your religion and to point out inconsistencies in your belief structure.


Getting back to Catholics vs. Protestants (which I'm guessing you are a member of some version), yes Catholics are Christians. You may not agree with their belief structure but that is your opinion. They probably don't agree with your belief structure. That doesn't make your or their belief structure any more accurate.

Edited~
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 Asura.Taidis
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By Asura.Taidis 2015-01-28 03:33:45
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When religious arguments flair up I just remind myself they're all wrong, sit back and watch them shout at eachother over who's fictional deity is bigger and better.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 03:49:03
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Asura.Taidis said: »
When religious arguments flair up I just remind myself they're all wrong, sit back and watch them shout at eachother over who's fictional deity is bigger and better.
I just like how religious people hate Atheists passing judgement on their religion but they are free to pass judgement on other religions they don't agree with. I especially like how scientologists are used by christians as a joke, because somehow a virgin birth, magically turning water into wine, and a vampire son of God is more believable than aliens.

Serious double standard.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 03:53:20
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I never called or even thought an athiest/person on other religion to be a fool. I disagree with them, obviously, but that is not passing judgement or hating. As for other theist, I cannot speak for them when it comes to their views of athiest/theist.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 03:56:33
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
I never called or even thought an athiest to be a fool. I disagree with them, obviously, but that is not passing judgement or hating. As for other theist, I cannot speak for them when it comes to their views of athiest.
Yet you pass judgement on Catholics because they worship differently than you.


Valefor.Endoq said: »
Catholic are not Christian, their teachings of putting people (Marry, pope, preachers, etc) between themselves and Jesus, and bowing before the pope calling him the "holy father", among other things, is what makes them unchristian.

Be careful to not be deceived by those that teach of a different Christ not of the scriptures.
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 03:58:05
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I never called or even thought an athiest/person on other religion to be a fool. I disagree with them, obviously, but that is not passing judgement or hating. As for other theist, I cannot speak for them when it comes to their views of athiest/theist.
Yet you pass judgement on Catholics because they worship differently than you.


Valefor.Endoq said: »
Catholic are not Christian, their teachings of putting people (Marry, pope, preachers, etc) between themselves and Jesus, and bowing before the pope calling him the "holy father", among other things, is what makes them unchristian.

Be careful to not be deceived by those that teach of a different Christ not of the scriptures.
No, I disagree with many of their beliefs, that is not the same as judging.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 04:03:33
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I never called or even thought an athiest/person on other religion to be a fool. I disagree with them, obviously, but that is not passing judgement or hating. As for other theist, I cannot speak for them when it comes to their views of athiest/theist.
Yet you pass judgement on Catholics because they worship differently than you.


Valefor.Endoq said: »
Catholic are not Christian, their teachings of putting people (Marry, pope, preachers, etc) between themselves and Jesus, and bowing before the pope calling him the "holy father", among other things, is what makes them unchristian.

Be careful to not be deceived by those that teach of a different Christ not of the scriptures.
No, I disagree with many of their beliefs, that is not the same as judging.
You stated they are not Christians when they call themselves Christians.

How is that not judging them?
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 04:07:08
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To judge is to disagree with accompanied action. For example to validate hatred/anger or to with an action on that person, such as a punnishment like death. The judging of mankind tends to be heavy handed and unballanced.

Disagreeing is simply discernment without judgement. Some(many) have a hard time to disagree with someone else without judging.
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By Asura.Taidis 2015-01-28 04:08:08
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I never called or even thought an athiest/person on other religion to be a fool. I disagree with them, obviously, but that is not passing judgement or hating. As for other theist, I cannot speak for them when it comes to their views of athiest/theist.
Yet you pass judgement on Catholics because they worship differently than you.


Valefor.Endoq said: »
Catholic are not Christian, their teachings of putting people (Marry, pope, preachers, etc) between themselves and Jesus, and bowing before the pope calling him the "holy father", among other things, is what makes them unchristian.

Be careful to not be deceived by those that teach of a different Christ not of the scriptures.
No, I disagree with many of their beliefs, that is not the same as judging.
You stated they are not Christians when they call themselves Christians.

How is that not judging them?
How can you view that as being judgemental, don't be ridiculous!

In an unrelated note, I have decided Endoq is not human, don't worry I'm not being judgemental.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 04:08:38
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I'm sorry if disagreeing with you feels like being judged, but that is simply not always the case.
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By charlo999 2015-01-28 04:11:23
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I'm sure if you asked a catholic if they were a Christian, they would tell you, no I'm catholic.
Answer the question instead of all this BS.
What are your beliefs on how the world and life was created?
Fact is you can't, and if you do then guess what. Your relying on faith too. So how are non religious types any different. The only difference is, ones faith is in god the other in man.
Btw I was atheist for 30 years before I started researching.
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 04:17:01
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To believe that nothing happened to nothing for no reason and for no reason became everything and then complete chaos for no reason became perfect order for no reason, sure takes a huge amount of blind faith. That I'll tell you takes more faith to believe than any faith I have ever had.
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By Asura.Taidis 2015-01-28 04:19:47
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charlo999 said: »
I'm sure if you asked a catholic if they were a Christian, they would tell you, no I'm catholic.
Answer the question instead of all this BS.
What are your beliefs on how the world and life was created?
Fact is you can't, and if you do then guess what. Your relying on faith too. So how are non religious types any different. The only difference is, ones faith is in god the other in man.
Btw I was atheist for 30 years before I started researching.
You were Atheist and researched your way into whatever form of Christianity you're in? What part of being an evil *** of a God won you over?
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-01-28 04:27:13
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Where do you see this perfect order? lol Things might have assembled but we still are in the hands of randomness. That's why we have mutations.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 04:29:22
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Where do you see this perfect order? lol Things might have assembled but we still are in the hands of randomness. That's why we have mutations.
You are only looking at the surface. Look deeper into quantum mechanics etc...
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 04:30:39
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charlo999 said: »
I'm sure if you asked a catholic if they were a Christian, they would tell you, no I'm catholic.
Answer the question instead of all this BS.
What are your beliefs on how the world and life was created?
Fact is you can't, and if you do then guess what. Your relying on faith too. So how are non religious types any different. The only difference is, ones faith is in god the other in man.
Btw I was atheist for 30 years before I started researching.
A) i'm not the original person you were asking

B) i don't have a belief on how the world was created. So far scientists have some great theories on how life has evolved and the more we are able to explore space the more those can be tested and evaluated. I don't mind the uncertainity of not "knowing" exactly how the universe came about.

C) I've known many, many Catholics and they consider themselves apart of Christianity. Maybe you should talk to some before you pass judgement. 1.2 billion people follow a different version of your faith, deal with it.

D) why did you choose the Bible over the hundreds of other creation stories, some that are thousands of years older? Did you look at polythestic religions or only monothestic? Why is your belief system better than theirs?

E) I don't give a damn what you believe until you start trying to cram your beliefs onto other people through lobbying for religious laws. As far as I know you aren't. I just find it silly that some religious people feel the need to belittle other religions or different ways of worshipping the same diety.
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-28 04:33:24
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
To believe that nothing happened to nothing for no reason and for no reason became everything and then complete chaos for no reason became perfect order for no reason, sure takes a huge amount of blind faith. That I'll tell you takes more faith to believe than any faith I have ever had.
Funny but many, many religions have believed in a chaos theory of world creation over the years (thousands of years).

You might find it hard to believe, they would probably feel the same about yours.
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 04:39:45
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
To believe that nothing happened to nothing for no reason and for no reason became everything and then complete chaos for no reason became perfect order for no reason, sure takes a huge amount of blind faith. That I'll tell you takes more faith to believe than any faith I have ever had.
Funny but many, many religions have believed in a chaos theory of world creation over the years (thousands of years).

You might find it hard to believe, they would probably feel the same about yours.
They can believe what they want to. It isn't for me to judge. I just don't agree. Does that mean I never considered their beliefs? No, infact I consider all things, and after a time am able to discern the truth.
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By Cerberus.Spirachub 2015-01-28 05:20:12
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charlo999 said: »
I'm sure if you asked a catholic if they were a Christian, they would tell you, no I'm catholic.
Answer the question instead of all this BS.
What are your beliefs on how the world and life was created?
Fact is you can't, and if you do then guess what. Your relying on faith too. So how are non religious types any different. The only difference is, ones faith is in god the other in man.
Btw I was atheist for 30 years before I started researching.

The big bang theory (no, not the series..) is thought to be the most likelyhood of how it's all started afaik. And no, that is not because people are relying on faith, but the the increasing amount of evidence gathered from science such as galaxies are contiuously drifting apart and cosmic microwave background radiation being discovered.

So if you were to ask me how the world is formed I'd be inclined to believe "it all started with a big bang" then some god created adam and eve and the world in 7 days or whatever it is that you or other religion decided, which is probably made up by some old dead guy with less knowledge of the world during his very uneventful days of writing a fictional story.

But if you really ask me the question, I'd tell you that it's irrelevant in my life and I don't care. I'd let the scientists who is specialised in that area of science to give me an informed discovery report when they found it.

Believing in how the world was created or what happens after life shouldn't really change the decisions I make in my own life time.I think this is the biggest difference between and atheist and a theist - we spend less time worrying about things that are unknown - afterlife, how the earth is formed, how does god want us to act... and we tend to be more focus on dealing with things we can control, believing in things we can understand.
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By charlo999 2015-01-28 05:56:52
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Actually the Big Bang is the evolution theory of the universe from a concentrated mass. They don't know or can't explain how that initial mass got there. You need to research it more.
There are also huge flaws in the theory that hasn't been explained.
You say it doesn't affect you and you don't really care, yet you had enough hunger in religious matters to post.
And the only facts you have posted are that some books are missing from canons and that there are theories discrediting bible based on the study of structure and similarity of the text. Which has been translated.
Nothing yet that factually discredits the main stories and teachings.
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By Asura.Taidis 2015-01-28 06:09:18
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charlo999 said: »
Actually the Big Bang is the evolution theory of the universe from a concentrated mass. They don't know or can't explain how that initial mass got there. You need to research it more.
There are also huge flaws in the theory that hasn't been explained.
You say it doesn't affect you and you don't really care, yet you had enough hunger in religious matters to post.
And the only facts you have posted are that some books are missing from canons and that there are theories discrediting bible based on the study of structure and similarity of the text. Which has been translated.
Nothing yet that factually discredits the main stories and teachings.
Burden of proof, look it up.
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By Cerberus.Spirachub 2015-01-28 06:41:44
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charlo999 said: »
Actually the Big Bang is the evolution theory of the universe from a concentrated mass. They don't know or can't explain how that initial mass got there. You need to research it more.
There are also huge flaws in the theory that hasn't been explained.
You say it doesn't affect you and you don't really care, yet you had enough hunger in religious matters to post.
And the only facts you have posted are that some books are missing from canons and that there are theories discrediting bible based on the study of structure and similarity of the text. Which has been translated.
Nothing yet that factually discredits the main stories and teachings.

I think you need to drink a cup of coffee mate, because I wasn't the one who posted up links about the flaws in bible etc.

I find it incredibly ironic that you believe in something that's not proven and you want proof and evidence on something that has more concrete evidence... hypocrite much? I'm not a believer of any theories, all I'm saying is if I were to pick one, I'd pick the one with some basis from science research. Until we can go back in time (which we probably can't, ever), we can't really prove or disprove anything and I'm not really interested in defending any theories.

I don't really have hunger for religious matters. Being a person who's trained in logical thinking I just can't help it but to point out how illogical their defence is.

Just like the bible, any prove anyone give you is merely a piece of text, and it's up to you how you interpret it. You could argue 1+1 is not 2 because there is no proof on the mathematical axiom... But hey, whatever makes you sleep better at night right?
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-01-28 06:42:24
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EDIT: posted in wrong thread....