Autumn's Law

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Autumn's Law
 Leviathan.Xsoahc
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By Leviathan.Xsoahc 2014-09-14 07:18:07
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Interesting story, but the ramifications have inspired the creation of a new law.

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Anthony Pasquale stops to visit his daughter at the Cedar Green Cemetery every morning, then returns once or twice more during the day. He sits on the small white bench and faces the polished granite headstone, etched with a hologram of Autumn on one side and the things she loved on the other — bicycles, soccer balls, cheerleading, skateboards.

From where he sits he can see the middle school, where his 12-year-old girl was a student, and next to that the high school, where the 15-year-old boy who killed her was one, too. When school is in session, Pasquale has even glimpsed a classmate peering out of the ground-floor science-lab windows, which look directly onto Autumn’s grave.

That’s how things work in a small town like Clayton, New Jersey, where everyone knows everyone else, where lives and stories intertwine. “Because it’s a small town — that’s why we live here,“ says Anthony Pasquale. But it was also why Autumn died.

“She trusted him because she thought everyone was raised the way she was,” he says of her attacker. “That everyone could be trusted. That all parents taught kids right from wrong.”

It has been nearly two years since Autumn went missing and Justin Robinson went to jail, pleading guilty to strangling her after she stopped by his house to trade parts for her brand-new bicycle. In that time her parents have learned that the stages of grief now include another step — finding someone to blame. It’s a stage well known to parents wrenched by a particular kind of loss, a kind arguably more common and certainly more public of late — losing children at the hands of other children. And it is raising questions with few answers in the existing legal system.

“Where were their parents?” grieving families asked after Columbine and Newtown, after Isla Vista and Troutdale.

“Where were the parents?” asks Anthony Pasquale, sitting in the back booth of the Liberty Diner in Clayton, where his coffee is on the house now, because, as is the case everywhere else in town, everyone knows who he is. “Parenting comes with responsibilities, and one of those is to raise your kids right, to pay attention and know when they’re a danger to someone else. That’s a parent’s job.”

To fail at that job is a crime, he believes. He’s recently taken his certainty to court, suing Justin Robinson’s parents for, essentially, being bad parents. He has also turned to Change.org and the New Jersey Legislature, advocating for “Autumn’s Law,” which would punish such parenting with prison.

“Parents who ignore the warning signs of their children’s propensity toward violence are direct contributors to their minor children’s murders,” his petition reads. “If the minor who murdered my daughter was properly treated, parented, disciplined and supervised my daughter would probably be alive today.”

Or, as his lawyer put it, “If you’re going to raise a murderer, you’re going to take responsibility.”
Is it a crime to raise a killer?

So for all you out there who blame the parents when something bad is done by a minor, here's the proposed solution. Right now it's just a petition.

Quote:
Accordingly, I and everyone who signs this petition are asking for consideration of “Autumn’s Law.” A law that would make abusive and/or neglectful parents/guardians who have custody of their children CRIMINALLY responsible for murders committed by their minor children, when they know or should have known the propensity toward violence existed.



When a parent/guardian knows or should have known that their child may pose a threat to third persons, it is the parents/guardian’s responsibility to minimize that risk. A child’s issues are not the responsibility of his/her school, state, teacher, counselor, law enforcement, community, neighbors or church, but instead, the primary responsibility of the child’s parents/guardians.



When the parents/guardians of a minor murderer are proven to have failed in their parental responsibilities by ignoring warning signs, failing to treat their children’s mental/emotional/behavioral issues and by fail to ensure proper supervision of their child, the parents/guardians actions/lack of actions becomes a contributing factor to the loss of life and lifelong devastation inflicted on their victims and their victims’ families. As such, they should be held criminally responsible.


WE ARE ASKING OUR GOVERNOR & STATE LEGISLATORS TO CONSIDER “AUTUMN’S LAW.” A LAW THAT WOULD MAKE NEGLECTFUL AND/OR ABUSIVE PARENTS/GUARDIANS WHO FAIL TO TREAT, CONTROL AND SUPERVISE THEIR MINOR CHILDREN, HELD CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE WHEN THEIR CHILDREN MURDER
"Autumn's Law" - Hold Abusive/Neglectful Parents Accountable
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-14 07:36:35
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Might sound good in theory, but implementing that properly would be a nightmare.
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 Asura.Ackeronll
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By Asura.Ackeronll 2014-09-14 07:52:34
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I don't know if it would be too hard.

Step 1 : Did the Child commit murder? If yes proceed to step 2.
Step 2 : Investigate for Child Neglect. If yes proceed to step 3.
Step 3 : Charge the Parent/s with Murder, Manslaughter, or Conspiracy to commit murder. If found guilty proceed to step 4.
Step 4 : Throw em in jail.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-14 07:58:23
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Asura.Ackeronll said: »
I don't know if it would be too hard.

Step 1 : Did the Child commit murder? If yes proceed to step 2.
Step 2 : Investigate for Child Neglect. If yes proceed to step 3.
Step 3 : Charge the Parent/s with Murder, Manslaughter, or Conspiracy to commit murder. If found guilty proceed to step 4.
Step 4 : Throw em in jail.

Ask a lawyer if law is ever that cut and dry.
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By fonewear 2014-09-14 08:02:34
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 Asura.Ackeronll
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By Asura.Ackeronll 2014-09-14 08:04:40
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Asura.Ackeronll said: »
I don't know if it would be too hard.

Step 1 : Did the Child commit murder? If yes proceed to step 2.
Step 2 : Investigate for Child Neglect. If yes proceed to step 3.
Step 3 : Charge the Parent/s with Murder, Manslaughter, or Conspiracy to commit murder. If found guilty proceed to step 4.
Step 4 : Throw em in jail.

Ask a lawyer if law is ever that cut and dry.
Yea I know, it would make too much sense to be that straight forward .... One can dream though.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-09-14 08:39:36
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Asura.Ackeronll said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Asura.Ackeronll said: »
I don't know if it would be too hard.

Step 1 : Did the Child commit murder? If yes proceed to step 2.
Step 2 : Investigate for Child Neglect. If yes proceed to step 3.
Step 3 : Charge the Parent/s with Murder, Manslaughter, or Conspiracy to commit murder. If found guilty proceed to step 4.
Step 4 : Throw em in jail.

Ask a lawyer if law is ever that cut and dry.
Yea I know, it would make too much sense to be that straight forward .... One can dream though.

There is this thing known as due process, I know it's not really understood and often gets a bad reputation, but it does exist and can't be removed. Part of that is that you can't charge one person for crimes commit by another person and deprive them of life or liberty. That is why they have separate charges for assisting someone do something bad. So you'd have to charge them with being an accessory to murder, manslaughter or negligent homicide and that would require proving they had culpability and knowledge of their child's problems. This is very hard since parents aren't considered experts in child problems.

The social consequences on the other hard are very bad. It's why I absolutely hate knee jerk reactions based on an emotional plea. They are almost always founded in single minded thinking without any real long term thought given to the secondary or tertiary consequences of the proposed action. Giving the state the power to go around charging parents for what their child might of done is bad business because it opens the door for reinterpretation and abuse.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-14 08:45:17
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
The social consequences on the other hard are very bad. It's why I absolutely hate knee jerk reactions based on an emotional plea. They are almost always founded in single minded thinking without any real long term thought given to the secondary or tertiary consequences of the proposed action. Giving the state the power to go around charging parents for what their child might of done is bad business because it opens the door for reinterpretation and abuse.
Agreed.

While it may sound like a solution, it doesn't sound well thought out.

It's one thing to blame the parents or their parenting, it's another thing to make that a crime in itself punishable by law.
 Phoenix.Michiiru
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By Phoenix.Michiiru 2014-09-14 10:11:03
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That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.
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 Asura.Echandra
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By Asura.Echandra 2014-09-14 10:20:15
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Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.

like...video games!

I agree, making this a punishable crime just has too much emotional impulse and not enough long-term thought.
 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-09-14 10:35:36
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That "know" word is so slippery.

Quote:
.... when they know or should have known the propensity toward violence existed.
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 Phoenix.Michiiru
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By Phoenix.Michiiru 2014-09-14 11:21:17
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Asura.Echandra said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.

like...video games!

I agree, making this a punishable crime just has too much emotional impulse and not enough long-term thought.
Well not only that, but you have classmates, teachers, relatives, TV, anything that can influence the way a child acts or thinks. I've done a lot of stupid ***because I thought it was "Trendy" such as drinking alcohol when I was younger. Big mistake.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-14 11:22:43
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Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
Asura.Echandra said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.

like...video games!

I agree, making this a punishable crime just has too much emotional impulse and not enough long-term thought.
Well not only that, but you have classmates, teachers, relatives, TV, anything that can influence the way a child acts or thinks. I've done a lot of stupid ***because I thought it was "Trendy" such as drinking alcohol when I was younger. Big mistake.
idk about mistake. Teenagers should experience a hangover at least once.
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 Phoenix.Michiiru
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By Phoenix.Michiiru 2014-09-14 11:39:19
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
Asura.Echandra said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.

like...video games!

I agree, making this a punishable crime just has too much emotional impulse and not enough long-term thought.
Well not only that, but you have classmates, teachers, relatives, TV, anything that can influence the way a child acts or thinks. I've done a lot of stupid ***because I thought it was "Trendy" such as drinking alcohol when I was younger. Big mistake.
idk about mistake. Teenagers should experience a hangover at least once.

Oh no it's a mistake if Corona is your first beer.
 Valefor.Slore
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By Valefor.Slore 2014-09-14 11:49:33
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Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
Asura.Echandra said: »
Phoenix.Michiiru said: »
That and there's more than just the parents influencing a minor's life.

like...video games!

I agree, making this a punishable crime just has too much emotional impulse and not enough long-term thought.
Well not only that, but you have classmates, teachers, relatives, TV, anything that can influence the way a child acts or thinks. I've done a lot of stupid ***because I thought it was "Trendy" such as drinking alcohol when I was younger. Big mistake.
idk about mistake. Teenagers should experience a hangover at least once.

Oh no it's a mistake if Corona is your first beer.

Or second, or third and so on :)
 Alexander.Carrelo
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By Alexander.Carrelo 2014-09-14 18:12:03
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I think this is something of a hard sell (as written). You could be the best parent in the world and still give birth to a violent sociopath, many of whom are expert manipulators and very much capable of hiding any warning signs from their caregivers.

They don't necessarily even learn this behavior from anyone--in many cases, the offenders know right from wrong, but become so fascinated by the idea of experimenting with these rules that a compulsion develops to break them. As far as I'm aware, there is still no known method (psychiatric or otherwise) to reliably rehabilitate people like this; even identifying them at all can be difficult until after they've committed a crime. In cases like this, it's not reasonable to expect parents to do what science cannot.

Even in cases of abuse and neglect (which I believe deserve more attention on their own as a separate issue), it's impossible to prove that bad parenting was the definitive cause of a child's crime. In any given case, there is the possibility that the child would have committed the crime even under the best of circumstances at home; the parents would still be guilty of abuse and neglect, but not of contributing to a crime that could never have been prevented in the first place.

Perhaps some (or even most) of childhood crimes are rightfully attributable to the parents' actions, but this would have to be true 100% of the time for the proposed law to function without violating the rights of the innocent. Err... "innocent" of charges related to the child's crime, but very possibly still guilty of abuse.


Basically, there are 3 relevant hypotheticals:

↑ There's usually no way to know who's who, so all we can really do is handle the neglect and abuse separately from this question of child criminality. Well, that and hopefully figure out how to do a better job dealing with mental disorders in general. >__>
 Quetzalcoatl.Gencay
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By Quetzalcoatl.Gencay 2014-09-14 18:33:43
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fail to ensure proper supervision of their child (this part is kinda like really?. With the way it is these days, both parents are normally working to keep a roof over there heads so its hard to fully keep a eye on there kids and some times may miss the signs there is something wrong.

Though i grew up with both my parents working, i turned out ok.

and also what Carrelo said
You could be the best parent in the world and still give birth to a violent sociopath, many of whom are expert manipulators and very much capable of hiding any warning signs from their caregivers.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-14 19:38:51
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Awful law. Another arm of the "victim" industry.

No one intentionally raises a monster.
 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2014-09-14 20:23:04
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i think everyone should be allowed a mulligan for 1 murder per 10 years
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By Dawn Charis 2014-09-14 21:03:13
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It seems a little backwards to throw a neglectful parent into prison where they can neglect the child even further >.>
 Leviathan.Xsoahc
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By Leviathan.Xsoahc 2014-09-15 12:00:08
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Dawn Charis said: »
It seems a little backwards to throw a neglectful parent into prison where they can neglect the child even further >.>
Depends if the child gets killed by police or not.
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 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-15 12:10:51
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Awful law. Another arm of the "victim" industry.

No one intentionally raises a monster.

You and your *** narrative. You're as bad as Fox or HuffPo.

You have to inject your "victim" ***into everything.

THERE IS A DEAD 12 YEAR OLD. SHE IS A VICTIM.

In the legal *** definition.

You are right in this instance, but inserting your little "victim" obsession -- a card you play yourself all the time -- is completely uncalled for here.

It's not "victimization" for parents to want to see justice done when these things happen, and see those responsible punished.

It is, however, a very difficult thing to prove them culpable of any murder-related charges, unless you have proof they specifically taught their child to enjoy murder.

And the idea that they did so is so highly improbable it borders on the practically impossible.

That said, I don't think it's inappropriate to perhaps go after them on lesser charges; do investigate for child welfare violations, neglect, abuse, etc. And at least charge them on those counts if appropriate.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Taberifx
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By Quetzalcoatl.Taberifx 2014-09-15 12:12:49
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They should make a "dumbass law". If you raise one you can be sent to jail
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-15 12:21:40
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Quetzalcoatl.Taberifx said: »
They should make a "dumbass law". If you raise one you can be sent to jail
Call it the 'Red Forman' law.
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