St. Louis, Missouri Vs. The Police: Heaven Or Hell, Duel 1! Let's Rock!

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St. Louis, Missouri Vs. The Police: Heaven or Hell, Duel 1! Let's rock!
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-21 15:29:17
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-21 15:30:22
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
So, only people who are allowed to use the benefit of the doubt defense are those who are not police?
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-21 15:43:30
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
So, only people who are allowed to use the benefit of the doubt defense are those who are not police?
Does the victim get that same benefit of the doubt?

but no that's not what anyone is saying either.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-21 15:47:18
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
So, only people who are allowed to use the benefit of the doubt defense are those who are not police?
Does the victim get that same benefit of the doubt?

but no that's not what anyone is saying either.
They do, but you JUST said that cops should not "hide behind the badge and rely on the 'he said she said' bit of it."
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-08-21 15:57:53
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
So, only people who are allowed to use the benefit of the doubt defense are those who are not police?
Does the victim get that same benefit of the doubt?

but no that's not what anyone is saying either.
They do, but you JUST said that cops should not "hide behind the badge and rely on the 'he said she said' bit of it."
No, he said that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.

The point being, police are placed in positions of power and trust. They shouldn't do questionable things, actions which call into account their integrity, because the actions of one reflect on all. But doing questionable things isn't making mistakes, either.

Quit moving the goalposts.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-21 16:00:05
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You also ignore the other two articles posted. One where the cops fired a hundred rounds into a car with two unarmed women and the other where a cop shot an unarmed guy 10 times (missed twice) who was looking for some help after he had had gotten into a car accident.
What other two articles posted?
I posted one on the previous page and milamber linked you to two in his...
I'll concede that you found 3 reasonable cases. But are you still going to state that police is going around shooting random people for the sport of it?
I don't think that there are many people anywhere in the US that do that. That was not your original question nor the intent of the replies to respond to you.

The point is that cops do many questionable things then hide behind the badge and rely on the he said she said bit of it.
So, only people who are allowed to use the benefit of the doubt defense are those who are not police?
Does the victim get that same benefit of the doubt?

but no that's not what anyone is saying either.
They do, but you JUST said that cops should not "hide behind the badge and rely on the 'he said she said' bit of it."
Hiding behind the blue line and blurring facts to benefit their own viewpoint is not them getting the "Benefit of the doubt".
 
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 Fenrir.Moldtech
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By Fenrir.Moldtech 2014-08-22 08:24:14
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Anyone else notice the protesting in Ferguson is dying down quite a bit after the condition of the cop came out? "Swelling on the side of his face" turned out to be a broken eye socket and they have "solid" evidence that Brown had his hands on the cops gun; which I assume are fingerprints. The protesting of what the African-American racists have been calling a civil rights violation and murder-by-cop kind of loses its luster when the facts show that the cop did shoot in self-defense I guess.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-22 08:41:15
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Fenrir.Moldtech said: »
Anyone else notice the protesting in Ferguson is dying down quite a bit after the condition of the cop came out? "Swelling on the side of his face" turned out to be a broken eye socket and they have "solid" evidence that Brown had his hands on the cops gun; which I assume are fingerprints. The protesting of what the African-American racists have been calling a civil rights violation and murder-by-cop kind of loses its luster when the facts show that the cop did shoot in self-defense I guess.
Oh, you will have your die-hard conspiracy racists theorists who will say that the police covered this up or some other *** reason.

But yeah, when the "saint" turned out to be the aggressor, people generally shut up.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-22 09:21:20
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Fenrir.Moldtech said: »
Anyone else notice the protesting in Ferguson is dying down quite a bit after the condition of the cop came out? "Swelling on the side of his face" turned out to be a broken eye socket and they have "solid" evidence that Brown had his hands on the cops gun; which I assume are fingerprints. The protesting of what the African-American racists have been calling a civil rights violation and murder-by-cop kind of loses its luster when the facts show that the cop did shoot in self-defense I guess.
CNN Says Rumor That Michael Brown Fractured Darren Wilson's Eye Socket is False - Politico

Quote:
The Washington Post reported earlier today that a friend of Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson says Wilson's eye socket was broken during his confrontation with Michael Brown:

"The signs of easing tensions came as a family friend of the officer who fatally shot Brown came forward to allege new details of the incident, saying that the officer suffered a fracture to his eye socket in a scuffle with the unarmed teenager before opening fire.

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been submitted to the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney and will be shared with a grand jury now weighing evidence to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting"

That claim appears to have been undermined. For one, the Post is now reporting that prosecutors have not seen any of Wilson's medical records:

"[Spokesperson Ed] Magee said that prosecutors have not received any medical records relating to Wilson so far. ​But he said that since Wilson was taken to the hospital, they assume there are medical records and they just haven’t received them yet."

And CNN producer Julian Cummings, who last week correctly reported that the release of Wilson's name was imminent, reports that the claim Wilson had a broken eye bone is flat-out incorrect:
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-22 09:25:26
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Of course.

Mainstream Media has to protect it's interests (and revenue) from harm by not reporting the truth.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-22 09:26:54
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Capitalism bro.
 Fenrir.Moldtech
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By Fenrir.Moldtech 2014-08-22 09:41:47
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So, I get the conclusion that dude hit the cop while he was in his cop car (resulting in a broken eye socket or just swelling of the face), then dude tried to grab the cops gun which is probably when it went off in the cop car and that scared dude off a bit, enough to enable the cop to get out of his cop car to attempt to arrest him but dude came at the cop again and the cop had a legit fear of his life by then and shot.

This is just a hypothetical opinion though of course.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-22 09:46:24
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Bottom line is that one way or another, the story has made it quite clear that racism is still an ongoing problem. And it's running both ways.
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 Fenrir.Moldtech
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By Fenrir.Moldtech 2014-08-22 09:54:27
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Bottom line is that one way or another, the story has made it quite clear that racism is still an ongoing problem. And it's running both ways.

Indeed, is in no way a one-sided issue.
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2014-08-22 10:02:24
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One thing is for sure, there is a lot of suspense and new development around this eye socket that appeared in the debate after day 1.
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By Fenrir.Squintik 2014-08-22 10:02:42
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Has it been stated whether or not Michael Brown had any drugs or alcohol in his system?

*edit* Nevermind, I found it myself. MJ was found in his system during the initial autopsy.
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By Heimdel 2014-08-22 11:21:05
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Fenrir.Moldtech said: »
So, I get the conclusion that dude hit the cop while he was in his cop car (resulting in a broken eye socket or just swelling of the face), then dude tried to grab the cops gun which is probably when it went off in the cop car and that scared dude off a bit, enough to enable the cop to get out of his cop car to attempt to arrest him but dude came at the cop again and the cop had a legit fear of his life by then and shot.

This is just a hypothetical opinion though of course.

Basically it comes down to people expect a cop to let them self be killed instead of defending them self. There was a cop around here who went to stop a suspect in a car break in the guy ran and the cop chased him. After catching the guy then guy stabs the cop. The cop held onto him till help got there but ended up dying. If he had used his gun instead his family wouldn't be left without a father and husband now.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-22 11:27:10
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Fenrir.Squintik said: »
Has it been stated whether or not Michael Brown had any drugs or alcohol in his system?

*edit* Nevermind, I found it myself. MJ was found in his system during the initial autopsy.

But marijuana stays in your system for up to a month, iirc. So it doesn't really establish whether he was high at the time.

Also, anecdotally, the vast majority of people get less aggressive when they're stoned.
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 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-22 11:29:34
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Heimdel said: »
Fenrir.Moldtech said: »
So, I get the conclusion that dude hit the cop while he was in his cop car (resulting in a broken eye socket or just swelling of the face), then dude tried to grab the cops gun which is probably when it went off in the cop car and that scared dude off a bit, enough to enable the cop to get out of his cop car to attempt to arrest him but dude came at the cop again and the cop had a legit fear of his life by then and shot.

This is just a hypothetical opinion though of course.

Basically it comes down to people expect a cop to let them self be killed instead of defending them self. There was a cop around here who went to stop a suspect in a car break in the guy ran and the cop chased him. After catching the guy then guy stabs the cop. The cop held onto him till help got there but ended up dying. If he had used his gun instead his family wouldn't be left without a father and husband now.

Sooo...."shoot first, ask questions later?"

Your point is taken, even without the emotional language, but just shooting every criminal of every stripe on sight really isn't the solution.
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By Enuyasha 2014-08-22 11:44:10
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Heimdel said: »
Fenrir.Moldtech said: »
So, I get the conclusion that dude hit the cop while he was in his cop car (resulting in a broken eye socket or just swelling of the face), then dude tried to grab the cops gun which is probably when it went off in the cop car and that scared dude off a bit, enough to enable the cop to get out of his cop car to attempt to arrest him but dude came at the cop again and the cop had a legit fear of his life by then and shot.

This is just a hypothetical opinion though of course.

Basically it comes down to people expect a cop to let them self be killed instead of defending them self. There was a cop around here who went to stop a suspect in a car break in the guy ran and the cop chased him. After catching the guy then guy stabs the cop. The cop held onto him till help got there but ended up dying. If he had used his gun instead his family wouldn't be left without a father and husband now.
I personally believe people are moving towards the "Shoot to disable" mindset. But, unfortunately we all know that if the cops shoot to disarm or disable they will get sued for the damages that person received and the inevitable "They ruined muh lyfe" debate circle jerk will go on for thousands and thousands of years.

In this specific case we honestly dont have enough reasonable doubt for one claim or the other. Truthfully, this is why the media should be forbidden by law to discuss cases that are under investigation, but first amendment rights and blah. Because if the media is allowed to grab hold with incomplete information and run with it theres no way we can actually follow up through the legal process to get to the bottom of this the way its meant to.

This, and the fact that now people are so opinionated on the subject that anything that pops up in the news is a racist cop killing a black kid for no reason (See the Powell incident) and you cant tell them any different. Its just ridiculous at this point and the copycat stories are a joke that no one seems to evaluate before they weigh in on them.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-22 11:52:43
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Quote:
Truthfully, this is why the media should be forbidden by law to discuss cases that are under investigation, but first amendment rights and blah.

There's a small authoritarian in me that agrees with you, but the rest of me generally doesn't like "First Amendment rights and blah."

The ability of a government to hold trials and convictions with repressed information is...just terrifying.
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 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-22 11:55:30
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Sooo...."shoot first, ask questions later?"

I think 'tase first, ask questions later' would be fair. then at least they only kill old guys with pacemakers.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-22 12:00:15
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Of course.

Mainstream Media has to protect it's interests (and revenue) from harm by not reporting the truth.
How do you know what the truth is? Have you seen these medical reports?

Granted I'm not saying it isn't but you're talking in absolutes here and you don't actually know.
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By Enuyasha 2014-08-22 12:10:22
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Quote:
Truthfully, this is why the media should be forbidden by law to discuss cases that are under investigation, but first amendment rights and blah.

There's a small authoritarian in me that agrees with you, but the rest of me generally doesn't like "First Amendment rights and blah."

The ability of a government to hold trials and convictions with repressed information is...just terrifying.
Most of the news affiliates use their Freedom of The Press for insidious things and this is one of our main problems as a country because our citizens abuse their rights and use them as some trump card against personal responsibility/reliability. (But i agree i could've phrased that better)

Im not for suppression of information, but at least let a trial go through before we start calling people murderers, rapists, and pedophiles without knowing all the information with the current scope of events (most of the time, with the events still going on).

I think i liked the news before they got rid of that legislation that had to have dissenting views on your panels and mandated that you had to have valid sources outside of your colleagues to report something. Those were the good ole days where if Jimmy fell down a well we didnt blame careless Jimmy who doesnt have the wherewithal to watch where he's going or the evil Well that planned to be in that exact position for Jimmy to fall into cause it secretly has a bias against people named Jimmy.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-22 12:18:41
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Quote:
Truthfully, this is why the media should be forbidden by law to discuss cases that are under investigation, but first amendment rights and blah.

There's a small authoritarian in me that agrees with you, but the rest of me generally doesn't like "First Amendment rights and blah."

The ability of a government to hold trials and convictions with repressed information is...just terrifying.


The stigma of a simple accusation has painted publicity in a strange way. In the light of previous judicial systems, the right to see the evidence against you, confront your accuser, and have a public trial is an incredible boon. People seem to forget that you have the RIGHT to those things. The media is simply pushing what sells, the bigger issue is that news is commercialized.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-22 12:19:08
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I mostly kept out of this one cause not enough info is out yet and too many people jumping to conclusions. That being said, the reason the police are going under increasing amounts of scrutiny is the sheer volume of bullsh!t they have been doing for as long as there have been police. This is compounded by the "thin blue line" / "brothers in blue" mentality where they will all cover each other, even if one of them abused their power. A police officer can commit murder, have a video of it, and they will say "it's justified", even when that video hits the internet. Did anyone every wonder why when one cop shoots they all start shooting even if there is just one suspect? It's so that nobody can identify exactly which cop pulled the trigger and thus no murder charges can be pressed if the shooting was in error. It also creates an incentive for all the attending officers to agree to a single story and protect each others ***'s on the off chance that the shooting wasn't justified.

That is the reason we're getting such a large backlash, people are tired of the good police officers covering for the bad ones. The racism angle only enters because there are more poor black folks in city's then poor white folks and poor people commit more violent / petty crime then middle class / rich folk.
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 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-22 12:22:31
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Siren.Mosin said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Sooo...."shoot first, ask questions later?"

I think 'tase first, ask questions later' would be fair. then at least they only kill old guys with pacemakers.

Ehh. I'd be okay with this.
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-22 12:24:33
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Siren.Mosin said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Sooo...."shoot first, ask questions later?"

I think 'tase first, ask questions later' would be fair. then at least they only kill old guys with pacemakers.

Ehh. I'd be okay with this.
The Mounties did that in Canada once. Killed a distraught polish man frantically looking for his non-English speaking mother.

Pretty sure it's happened a few times as well, before and since then.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-22 12:24:50
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
I mostly kept out of this one cause not enough info is out yet and too many people jumping to conclusions. That being said, the reason the police are going under increasing amounts of scrutiny is the sheer volume of bullsh!t they have been doing for as long as there have been police. This is compounded by the "thin blue line" / "brothers in blue" mentality where they will all cover each other, even if one of them abused their power. A police officer can commit murder, have a video of it, and they will say "it's justified", even when that video hits the internet. Did anyone every wonder why when one cop shoots they all start shooting even if there is just one suspect? It's so that nobody can identify exactly which cop pulled the trigger and thus no murder charges can be pressed if the shooting was in error. It also creates an incentive for all the attending officers to agree to a single story and protect each others ***'s on the off chance that the shooting wasn't justified.

That is the reason we're getting such a large backlash, people are tired of the good police officers covering for the bad ones. The racism angle only enters because there are more poor black folks in city's then poor white folks and poor people commit more violent / petty crime then middle class / rich folk.

While I agree with you, I don't think there is evidence that poor people commit violent or petty crimes at a higher rate than the middle class, just that it's more publicized and more prosecuted. I know far more middle class people that purchase and use pot, but very few of them are ever targeted for extra scrutiny during a routine traffic stop. The difference in the view of race in terms of crime is evident in the rates of prosecution, middle class whites and poor blacks use common drugs at about the same rates, but poor blacks are as much as 20 times more likely to be prosecuted as a result. You could chalk that up to the middle class whites being better at concealing it, but a large portion has to do with law enforcement's focus.
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