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Random Politics & Religion #00
Server: Shiva
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Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-08-27 11:21:37
Just because they say they're not "against the environment" doesn't mean they're exactly pro-conservation.
actually "we" (the racist bigoted clinger gun nut hunter brigade of the conservative party) are very pro conservation. we are just also against the idea the gubberment is the solution to the problem... or any other problem for that matter....
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Server: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 11:22:11
I still find it funny that most of those with the political belief that destroying the environment is okay Let me ask you this, can you name those who believe that destroying the environment is ok? Even in this forum?
Speaking on a nationwide, party-line level. That's generalizing.
I could say that all liberals are anti-success and wishes to keep everyone down to their level.
Nobody who's a conservative is anti-environment, we just believe that there is a better way of achieving that without forcing it down everyone's throats.
You're not saying you're "anti-environment", but at least on a national level, Republican politicians are endorsing policies and corporations that essentially are. Just because they say they're not "against the environment" doesn't mean they're exactly pro-conservation. Most companies, especially those who's product has environmental consequences as part of production, voluntarily chose to enact better environmental controls before EPA got after them to do so.
I know this because the area I used to live when I was a child has multiple plants that, in the early 50s, produced a lot of smoke and ash and other harmful contaminants in the air. As technology improved, so did their environmental controls (all of them). They all did this voluntarily, and not by force.
My father works at one of these plants, a steel mill in South Texas. EPA has issued 7 lawsuits against this mill and several others all over the nation (consolidated lawsuits) for abiding their own rules in the last 6 years. They were abiding their own rules before they became regulations in the first place and that doesn't stop EPA from issuing said lawsuits.
I don't have an issue with environmental regulations, I have a problem with EPA's overreach and vendetta against manufacturing and service businesses in the USA.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 11:23:24
Just because they say they're not "against the environment" doesn't mean they're exactly pro-conservation.
actually "we" (the racist bigoted clinger gun nut hunter brigade of the conservative party) are very pro conservation. we are just also against the idea the gubberment is the solution to the problem... or any other problem for that matter....
Mmmmhmmm.
My trust of privated businesses protecting anything other than their own monetary assetts is absolutely nil.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 11:23:50
Also, if "climate change" is COMPLETE CRAP. Why do you feel the need to burden everyone with less jobs and more expensive power?
Why, exactly, can't green they find work in green technologies? I still can't wrap my head around why apparently a bio-reactor or nuclear power plant requires less workers than a coal plant, for example. Because those reactors are generally more automated to remove the human equation out of the process.
Modernized ANYTHING takes less people to run. Let's live in the stone age where it took 12 people to kill a mammoth, that's HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. You misunderstood.
Less people means less errors, and would you want a lot of people working in a business where an error can lead to a civilization being wiped off the earth?
I'd want as many QUALIFIED people as necessary. But why are "jobs" always given as an excuse for refusing to move into the 21st century with infrastructure, then? Just because a person is qualified doesn't exclude them from any mistakes made.
But who's giving excuses for jobs to refuse to upgrade infrastructure? Can you provide an example please?
By Jetackuu 2014-08-27 11:23:51
Your perceived vendetta*
Server: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 11:25:17
Just because they say they're not "against the environment" doesn't mean they're exactly pro-conservation.
actually "we" (the racist bigoted clinger gun nut hunter brigade of the conservative party) are very pro conservation. we are just also against the idea the gubberment is the solution to the problem... or any other problem for that matter....
Mmmmhmmm.
My trust of privated businesses protecting anything other than their own monetary assetts is absolutely nil. Think of it this way, businesses are after long-term goals, and in order to protect their long-term revenue stream, it is better to not destroy the world with their products and create a cleaner environment.
Now, I won't say that all businesses do this, but most do.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-08-27 11:30:18
I really hate the EPA, but corporations and businesses can only ever be counted on for one thing: Make the most money with the least amount of effort.
Regulations exist (in theory) to make it more expensive to be an asswipe. And while the EPA is an obtuse wreck, the idea that the U.S. could maintain it's natural resources and heritage without some degree of environmental regulations is absurd.
Not that you were saying otherwise... Just that the EPA is a bag of ten-thousand ***.
Look how long it took to start taking Lead out of consumer products. It's weird that such an obvious environmental and health calamity could persist for thirty or so years, fighting to the bitter end, while in other places in the U.S. species protection acts for "Regionally threatened" animals (Region in this case being less than 1acre) can impede development with the most ardent prejudice.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 11:31:43
I really hate the EPA, but corporations and businesses can only ever be counted on for one thing: Make the most money with the least amount of effort.
Regulations exist (in theory) to make it more expensive to be an asswipe. And while the EPA is an obtuse wreck, the idea that the U.S. could maintain it's natural resources and heritage without some degree of environmental regulations is absurd.
Not that you were saying otherwise... Just that the EPA is a bag of ten-thousand ***.
Look how long it took to start taking Lead out of consumer products. It's weird that such an obvious environmental and health calamity could persist for thirty or so years, fighting to the bitter end, while in other places in the U.S. species protection acts for "Regionally threatened" animals (Region in this case being less than 1acre) can impede development with the most ardent prejudice.
Yeah. Don't take my feelings as an endorsement of the EPA. They're terrible at their jobs.
I just don't trust corporations further than their bottom line entices them.
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Server: Odin
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Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-08-27 11:33:54
Like KN said, some entities are capable of seeing long-term sustainability as the proper course both in human and financial terms. But that kind of model isn't something aggressive venture-capitalists like who thrive on a more volatile market.
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-27 11:34:46
The EPA is necessary evil.
Otherwise we get manufacturing companies making a bunch of money by switching to dumping runoff into our water supplies then stonewalling the legal system for decades until everyone affected dies.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 11:37:48
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The EPA is necessary evil.
Otherwise we get manufacturing companies making a bunch of money by switching to dumping runoff into our water supplies then stonewalling the legal system for decades until everyone affected dies. You are making it sound like most, if not all, manufacturing companies in America does that.
I disagree, and the ones you do hear about come from California, where their business practices are questionable at best.
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-27 11:43:11
It's merely one example. Without regulations (and regulatory bodies) companies trend towards whatever makes the most profit with the least amount of effort. That generally means shortcuts and abusing the profits to prop up their bad habits.
Companies that do attempt to abide by some moral standards (or at least sustainability) are then put at a disadvantage - at least in the short run. Often the most 'green' or 'sustainable' products are either a subcategory of a larger entity or a niche business that can afford to fly under the radar.
Same thing goes for other regulatory bodies like the FDA. It's all necessary evil. They're inefficient, bloated and slow as *** (bureaucracy at its finest) but ultimately a wall between us being skullfucked by corporations.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-08-27 11:46:26
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » but ultimately a wall between us being skullfucked by corporations.
Unless you appoint chief lobbyists in chairman positions of those government bodies.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 11:48:49
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » but ultimately a wall between us being skullfucked by corporations.
Unless you appoint chief lobbyists in chairman positions of those government bodies.
FDA's kinda guilty here too. They've passed (or passed and then reversed under pressure) some pretty severely stupid rules regarding beer and cheese productive, respectively, that really seem to benefit no one but big corporations looking to keep down competition from smaller groups.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 11:50:38
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The EPA is necessary evil.
Otherwise we get manufacturing companies making a bunch of money by switching to dumping runoff into our water supplies then stonewalling the legal system for decades until everyone affected dies. You are making it sound like most, if not all, manufacturing companies in America does that.
I disagree, and the ones you do hear about come from California, where their business practices are questionable at best.
Before it was illegal, it was standard operating procedure.
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Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-27 11:51:38
A symptom of the US public no longer having a government. Neo-Feudalism, here we come.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 11:53:24
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »A symptom of the US public no longer having a government. Neo-Feudalism, here we come.
House of Cards turns into Game of Thrones.
Cute.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 11:53:27
Also, if "climate change" is COMPLETE CRAP. Why do you feel the need to burden everyone with less jobs and more expensive power?
Why, exactly, can't green they find work in green technologies? I still can't wrap my head around why apparently a bio-reactor or nuclear power plant requires less workers than a coal plant, for example. Because those reactors are generally more automated to remove the human equation out of the process.
Modernized ANYTHING takes less people to run. Let's live in the stone age where it took 12 people to kill a mammoth, that's HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. You misunderstood.
Less people means less errors, and would you want a lot of people working in a business where an error can lead to a civilization being wiped off the earth?
I'd want as many QUALIFIED people as necessary. But why are "jobs" always given as an excuse for refusing to move into the 21st century with infrastructure, then? Just because a person is qualified doesn't exclude them from any mistakes made.
But who's giving excuses for jobs to refuse to upgrade infrastructure? Can you provide an example please?
What other reason is there to be against increasing regulation on outdated technologies. The purpose of making coal unprofitable is to give companies a reason to move into the present. The excuse is that it will cause people to lose their jobs. Jobs > progress apparently.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 11:56:27
Also, if "climate change" is COMPLETE CRAP. Why do you feel the need to burden everyone with less jobs and more expensive power?
Why, exactly, can't green they find work in green technologies? I still can't wrap my head around why apparently a bio-reactor or nuclear power plant requires less workers than a coal plant, for example. Because those reactors are generally more automated to remove the human equation out of the process.
Modernized ANYTHING takes less people to run. Let's live in the stone age where it took 12 people to kill a mammoth, that's HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. You misunderstood.
Less people means less errors, and would you want a lot of people working in a business where an error can lead to a civilization being wiped off the earth?
I'd want as many QUALIFIED people as necessary. But why are "jobs" always given as an excuse for refusing to move into the 21st century with infrastructure, then? Just because a person is qualified doesn't exclude them from any mistakes made.
But who's giving excuses for jobs to refuse to upgrade infrastructure? Can you provide an example please?
What other reason is there to be against increasing regulation on outdated technologies. The purpose of making coal unprofitable is to give companies a reason to move into the present. The excuse is that it will cause people to lose their jobs. Jobs > progress apparently.
This happens in Pennsylvania constantly. Coal companies pay for campaigns for politicians who back them by painting cleaner energy sources as "taking vital jobs from the community".
Forget that your child will grow up in some of the worst air quality around.
We compete with California for a category...yay?
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-08-27 12:48:38
The problem is you are stuck on the idea that somehow politicians can write the perfect law that will fix the everything. despite 238 consecutive years of evidence to the contrary. just look at the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008, it was supposed to help children trapped in illegal sex trade...
oops.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 12:50:09
The problem is you are stuck on the idea that somehow politicians can write the perfect law that will fix the everything. despite 238 consecutive years of evidence to the contrary. just look at the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008, it was supposed to help children trapped in illegal sex trade...
oops.
So...we should just let everyone do whatever they want, however they want, regardless of consequence?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 12:52:00
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »It's merely one example. Without regulations (and regulatory bodies) companies trend towards whatever makes the most profit with the least amount of effort. That generally means shortcuts and abusing the profits to prop up their bad habits.
Again, you are assuming that most companies take said shortcuts and/or abuse anything or even have bad habits.
Have you actually studied the structure or even a business model at all?
Quote: Companies that do attempt to abide by some moral standards (or at least sustainability) are then put at a disadvantage - at least in the short run. Often the most 'green' or 'sustainable' products are either a subcategory of a larger entity or a niche business that can afford to fly under the radar.
You are referring to the majority of businesses. How again are they disadvantaged if 99+% of other businesses follow the same guidelines?
Quote: Same thing goes for other regulatory bodies like the FDA. It's all necessary evil. They're inefficient, bloated and slow as *** (bureaucracy at its finest) but ultimately a wall between us being skullfucked by corporations.
You honestly think that businesses are out to get you. This is not a question but a statement, because of your irrational fear of being, as you so put it, skullfucked by said businesses.
Yes, there has been bad businesses in the past. Yes, there are still some bad businesses in existence now. To take those handful of businesses and apply it to everyone because you fear them just shows how illogical you are.
But let me ask you this: You work, right? If your irrational fears are true, then you are part of the problem because you work for a business. Even if you are working for yourself, you are still part of the problem because your work is a business.
Are you part of the problem, or do you concede that you are exaggerating your own fears?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 12:53:16
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The EPA is necessary evil.
Otherwise we get manufacturing companies making a bunch of money by switching to dumping runoff into our water supplies then stonewalling the legal system for decades until everyone affected dies. You are making it sound like most, if not all, manufacturing companies in America does that.
I disagree, and the ones you do hear about come from California, where their business practices are questionable at best.
Before it was illegal, it was standard operating procedure. EPA does not pass law. It is not illegal to disregard their regulations, just as it is not legal to adhere to it.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 12:54:11
What other reason is there to be against increasing regulation on outdated technologies. The purpose of making coal unprofitable is to give companies a reason to move into the present. The excuse is that it will cause people to lose their jobs. Jobs > progress apparently. That's conjecture, not evidence.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-27 12:56:32
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The EPA is necessary evil.
Otherwise we get manufacturing companies making a bunch of money by switching to dumping runoff into our water supplies then stonewalling the legal system for decades until everyone affected dies. You are making it sound like most, if not all, manufacturing companies in America does that.
I disagree, and the ones you do hear about come from California, where their business practices are questionable at best.
Before it was illegal, it was standard operating procedure. EPA does not pass law. It is not illegal to disregard their regulations, just as it is not legal to adhere to it.
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong.
What other reason is there to be against increasing regulation on outdated technologies. The purpose of making coal unprofitable is to give companies a reason to move into the present. The excuse is that it will cause people to lose their jobs. Jobs > progress apparently. That's conjecture, not evidence.
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings?
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 12:59:31
Quote: You honestly think that businesses are out to get you.
And you honestly think they aren't.
I really think you're giving too much credit to some of these giant corporations. They exist to make money. Some of them have even had whistleblowers and government inquiries expose policies meant to mislead the public about product dangers for the sake of money.
And much like cockroaches, you've got to expect that for each one caught, there are multiple more out there flying under the radar.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-27 13:00:09
Large businesses care about profits and because they're so large they have the clout to do what they want with little regard for potential punishment. Companies won't do anything purely for the evulz but if there are methods to lower costs or increase their stake in the market they'll take it - often with little regard for the long-run consequences.
See: Banking. BoA admits to billions in fraud this week and what do they get? A fine they can have customers pay for.
Ironic you talk about irrational fear of companies when you constantly trumpet the fear of the US gov't infringing on your rights. Tyranny is tyranny. Be it unscrupulous business practices or a fascist state. Better to have the two fight eachother.
Given your rights or profit, business will choose profit every time. That's how capitalism works. You exploit others and shore up your defenses with money.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-27 13:01:17
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-27 13:06:22
Actually, people engaging in dumping pollutants into potable water can be charged criminally. Willfully disregarding EPA regulations is a violation of the Environmental Protection Act, which can also carry criminal charges. You're wrong. Sorry, but where in the National Environmental Policy Act or any other environmental acts afterwards did it state that EPA can create law?
It's the substance of the narrative, how exactly can you ask for proof of someone's ramblings? It's your ramblings I'm asking support for.
"Law", "policy", and "regulation" intertwine a bit.
Congress writes laws that allow the EPA to enact and enforce regulations and policies. EPA doesn't create laws, they are authorized by laws to create regulations that are enforceable under the laws granting them their regulatory powers.
From their own website: "Congress passes the laws that govern the United States, but Congress has also authorized EPA and other federal agencies to help put those laws into effect by creating and enforcing regulations."
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-27 13:12:35
Quote: You honestly think that businesses are out to get you.
And you honestly think they aren't.
I really think you're giving too much credit to some of these giant corporations. They exist to make money. Some of them have even had whistleblowers and government inquiries expose policies meant to mislead the public about product dangers for the sake of money.
And much like cockroaches, you've got to expect that for each one caught, there are multiple more out there flying under the radar. Corporations are like people, sure there are some bad ones out there, but the majority of them are just trying to get through each day. If you're going to start being paranoid of everyone around you over a few bad apples, better start moving into a bomb shelter now and load up on supplies.
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