Is It Time To Remove Under God From The Pledge?

I love this whole "equal is great" and all that when humans are inherently not equal.

The only way we can all be equal is when we are all robots.

Equal is great but at what cost ? How much freedom and privacy are you willing to give up to be "free" ?

I was personally never indoctrinated with the same values as the rest of my family, as our personal values are ever changing, and evolving, the more we learn and experience.

Our parents try to teach us the basics of right and wrong, and sometimes have conflicting views between two parents. In the majority of situations, a child may see or learn other behavior that is different from what they were personally taught. That's ok, because as a child learns and witnesses these things, they have a chance to ask what and why, and have a discussion about it.

As I stated before, there is an outright difference between cultural values and outright indoctrination. This can be further filtered down to familial values, or personal values, and outright indoctrination.

I call BS.


And here is why. You were "taught" the basics of right and wrong, but did you, as you were being "taught" this, ever stopped to ask why it is right and why it is wrong? Of course not, you believed what your parents told you because you trusted that they were teaching you correctly.

Thus, you were indoctrinated.

You're correct.

Teaching is showing how and why something is correct.
Indoctrination is telling someone something is correct.

Show of hands here: who was shown how and why their own native country is the best country in the world, or how and why their religion is the correct religion, at a young age. I imagine no one. We were all indoctrinated into it.

There's a difference between that and say, why 1+1=2, something easily demonstrated and verifiable.

Why are you getting so annoyed with my questioning?

I haven't said anything with what you are implying. I asked if you had ever asked a teacher in the 13 years you went to school why you had to recite something every day.

We have a flag for very specific reasons (rallying on the battlefields being one) and the history of how the flag evolved is very interesting.

Anything that is repeated on a daily basis without explaniation, ever, is a problem to me especially when it starts young enough that children never question it because they've just always done it. I have no problem with the pledge of alligence for people who understand what is being pledged.


I asked if you had ever questioned it and you never have.

I've asked several people and they all have different reasons for why we say the pledge. The reasons the person who wrote the pledge stated

Bloodrose stated it best: but when you start something in children young enough they will not question it because it becomes ingrained, automatic, and they become irritated later when you ask them why.

He was pretty pissed actually.

With respect to the Constitution, all men are born free, and equal (as far as rights go). So you did a fantastic job failing to spin my words into something they are not.

In terms of actual human physical and mental states - correct, we're not all equal. But you're using the word "equal" in place of "the same", to try and infer something that was quite obviously meant to be taken in sarcasm.

Also, I really wasn't. I was the middle child of my family, and learned an entirely different set of values than what my family wanted me to develop. I had access to information, and was even encouraged to ask questions that were appropriate to what I was questioning. "Why does my sister get to do that, and my brother this, while I'm not allowed?" I received answers that were less than satisfactory, and are still unsatisfactory, but I received 2 different answers from both my parents.

Hard to call that indoctrination when one has the chance, or allowance, to think about things critically, with open resources.

You only think that way because

1) You're a much older person now and it makes us feel good to believe that we can think for ourselves
2) You don't align perfectly with the rest of your family. Yeah, adolescences does that to you.


No there's not, and no you can't. At best, you can undo the indoctrination when you become older and more independent. I imagine this is why Atheism is the fastest growing 'religion' in America and has been for awhile now.

I had some of both to be honest, but there's also a difference between showing something as to why with verifiable facts and reasoning, and using circular logic to do so.

It's odd, I was raised to inquire and "think" yet when I apply those same things to everything, it only starts arguments with my family.

Go figure.

If a child is unable to critically think, is it indoctrination? Critical thought is the caveat between education and indoctrination.

The problem with saying "Yes, it is indoctrination," is that a child cannot be taught how to critically think without being taught ample amounts of information; somewhere between a decade or two's worth of information, actually. Is an infant being indoctrinated? Perhaps, but an infant is literally incapable of learning in any other way. So, is it different with children? Either you acquiesce that indoctrination has gradients, and children are a special subset until a certain mental age, or you acknowledge that indoctrination isn't a term that can be applied to children until a certain mental age.

I personally adhere to the previous because the line between raising children and indoctrination is nearly indistinguishable. The line is blurred intentionally, interweaving the two together. The worst types of indoctrination impede the growth of critical thought in children, making it impossible for a child to move out of indoctrination, even well into adulthood.

Wow, the arrogance and ignorance is astounding with this one.

being taught is a far cry from being forced. And of course, all the time. I may have trusted my parents with my safety, but that didn't mean I wasn't above or below asking questions when they crossed my mind.

Basics are basics. Going into specifics about what is considered right and wrong in great detail, can come across as a doctrine - rather than guidelines. Once you have a grasp on the basics of *anything* that's when your critical thinking begins working.

I saw first hand that parents of most children have no clue what they are doing, yet they try to prepare a child with tools to succeed, not limit their thinking.

"Look both ways before crossing the street" "why" "because it's for your safety - to check if there is a car coming from either direction" - yes, totally *** indoctrination right there.

Yeah, all of us had some of both.

I think you're still going by the misconception that indoctrination is inherently evil.

It's just something we do to pass on our values to the next generation.

It's both.

And there's nothing wrong with it.

There are certain things that I believe should be indoctrinated into our children. For example, treat others like you want to be treated. I'm pretty sure many children won't be able to figure out that treating other people kindly is a good thing on their own.

It's a matter of definitions. I don't accept your definition of indoctrination. I feel a separation of terms is necessary to be more accurate. That doesn't necessarily mean we disagree at the core, just in descriptors.

Ok, so point number 1: you've already conceded that you *believe* you can't think for yourself, by admitting that you really can't. You are clearly, by your logic, unable to form your own opinion, and has to have someone else spell it out for you. The again, this line of thinking falls apart, simply because someone else, somewhere higher up, has used his or her own line of thought, beliefs, etc. to tell you how to think.

Point number2: No one will ever align perfectly with the entirety of their family - why? because they grow to develop different values, according to how they were taught, when, where, why, by who, and what they are being taught.

There is a drastic over-abundance of evidence, that shows how cultural values evolve, strengthen, whither, and ultimately die. Some of which are from indoctrination, while most, are from learning the roots, and critically thinking about them. People pick and choose which values they latch onto, or break away from.

A perfect example would be the various religions around the world - some are done forcefully by indoctrination, and others, are because they hold personal attachment to certain teachings. Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many various sects of each primary religion.

Other examples, would be how we choose to teach children, or to present information for them to consider and think about, or methods of researching said materials.

Fair enough, but it is worth a second thought. The only time you hear this word used is when it's associated with something negative and that negative thing is something we don't personally agree with. Every parent teaches things to their children. It's not fair to say that it's indoctrination when those children are taught things we don't particularly agree with.

Agreed, which is why I feel a distinction needs to be made between the two ideas.

According to wiki the term you want is socialization, but yes, it is still indoctrination but perceived in a more positive way.

In a word: what?

You lost me

Is this your way to imply, like your husband did, that I'm indoctrinated?

You also still haven't addressed the evils of this indoctrination other than to say that people get annoyed if you question them about the pledge lol... Nor have you even made a convincing point that it is indoctrination at all.

The pledge is one of those things that has become holy in the sense that Americans demand so respect given to it that going against the pledge is seen as blasphemous and dangerous. If you don't want to say it, perhaps you're not really American. Perhaps you're the 'other'. Perhaps I should keep my eye on you more often. Perhaps distance should be put between me and you.

It's an inclusion check. A token tribute to your nation to be taken at face value with little regard for critical thought. Children grow up internalizing the importance of the ceremony (as commanded by their adult overlords and observing the high value adults put on it) even if they forget the motions. It's one of those things that we indoctrinate our children to perform because it's a way of making sure everyone's on the same team.

Cmon, at 6 who's really going to question the adults telling you to stand and recite the magic words that bind you to America? It's largely adults with objections to the procedure. Refusing to participate puts you on a pedestal of scorn and thus peer pressure takes its course.

McCarthy? Is that you?

I think Mil point blank said you were indoctrinated as are all adults who never question something.

I tried asking you questions an having that dialogue but you are more interested in telling me what I've said rather than even thinking beyond "No, I'm not nor was I ever indoctrinated in saying the pledge!"

well definitions of indoctrination aside, seeing as how we've uniformly agreed that it's effectiveness is next to nil, wtf are we even arguing again?

just for the sake of following along, mind you.

That's what I was getting at.

Not reciting the pledge is like refusing to salute the flag, refusing to respect a veteran, not participating in the national anthem or burning a flag. It's seen as disrespect to our core values and a sign that you're not part of our group.

So yes, we indoctrinate our children into these norms because we value our inclusion. You're not to question the pledge, you're to simply accept that your adult overlords are setting you on the right path. Hell, even adults don't really know why we do it. We just do it. It's the 'American' thing to do.

I'd say it's working pretty well

in the thread here? or general terms?

in general terms, hell ya it is. I thought throughout reading most this thread that a good number of the posters found it to be BS, or an inconvenience.

I guess I could've been skimming too much....