Is It Time To Remove Under God From The Pledge?

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Is it Time to Remove Under God From the Pledge?
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 14:23:09
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
When did I say that any of those were indoctrination? Please tell me.

Did I respond to you specifically?

In the US news/historians those are listed as indictrination activities.

Edit: but do you consider them indoctrination activities?
I do not consider reciting a pledge indoctrination. No.
That just means you're already indoctrinated.
So I've been told... I just figured I resided in the matrix at that point.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 14:28:51
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I could get behind the idea of indoctrination if they limited or took out all other information that related to the anything outside the purview of the pledge... Say that they make you recite this day in and day out pounding it into your brain and then refused to let you examine any other source of information that would put this in to question... That isn't happening.

If you could show that someone is actively limiting or erasing critical thinking through this practice then maybe you could convince me. Having kids recite it that forget they did 5 seconds later? yeah...
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-04-23 14:36:57
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
All these years and the sporting events I've attended where they've sung the national anthem before the game... They've just been taking advantage of my love of sporting events to indoctrinate me! I feel so used!
I don't know about indoctrination but I could certainly use without listening to it every time I go to a game, having some 8-16 year old kid poorly draw out every note in a bad song while the rednecks hoot and hollar.
That's what I thought at first but since they sing it before every game here that must be the conclusion... We should billy club the guy that doesn't take his hat off or raise hi hand to his heart... and omg... if he deosn't stand up?!?!

...you may be underestimating the reaction if you were to actually decline to stand and remove your hat, etc. No one gets on your *** for not singing along, but if you don't at least pretend to go along with it, you get dirty looks and muttered insults, at best. 'murica is serious business.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 14:58:26
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
All these years and the sporting events I've attended where they've sung the national anthem before the game... They've just been taking advantage of my love of sporting events to indoctrinate me! I feel so used!
I don't know about indoctrination but I could certainly use without listening to it every time I go to a game, having some 8-16 year old kid poorly draw out every note in a bad song while the rednecks hoot and hollar.
That's what I thought at first but since they sing it before every game here that must be the conclusion... We should billy club the guy that doesn't take his hat off or raise hi hand to his heart... and omg... if he deosn't stand up?!?!

...you may be underestimating the reaction if you were to actually decline to stand and remove your hat, etc. No one gets on your *** for not singing along, but if you don't at least pretend to go along with it, you get dirty looks and muttered insults, at best. 'murica is serious business.
Maybe I have missed out on all the resutling brutality over the refusal to participate. Admittedly I can only draw from my own personal experiences on the matter where there have been no issues regarding people refusing. Though I've had a guy throw a fist when we accidentally bumped into eachother.

As for dirty looks and muttered insults I imagine I get those here if not a greater reaction for just speaking my own opinion so...
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-04-23 15:10:42
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So when you asked your teachers at school why do I have to say the pledge of allegiance what answers did you get?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:15:10
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
So when you asked your teachers at school why do I have to say the pledge of allegiance what answers did you get?
"Shut up sonny before I locate my boot up your ***" - Mr. Koehler, 1st Grade, 1987.
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By Jetackuu 2014-04-23 15:18:28
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 15:19:32
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
So when you asked your teachers at school why do I have to say the pledge of allegiance what answers did you get?
So are the teachers in on this indoctrination now as well?

Never asked about why we recited it that I can recall. I pretty much treated it like the prayer we said at the start of every day as somewhat of an annoyance we had to get through before class could begin. Never paid it much attention (let me guess I'm indoctrinated because I didn't ask a teacher?)

If you're truly curious I can go ask my mother (6th grade was awful) and see what she says. Don't have any contact with any other teacher still.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:22:30
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If saying the Pledge of Allegiance is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing by some), then isn't everything we have ever learned in society also considered indoctrination (or brainwashing)?

Like I said before, it isn't considered indoctrination until you don't like it.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 15:27:55
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Personally I'm glad we've moved past the whole "indoctrination because god" to the whole pledge is a form of indoctrination.

I'm still waiting to be shown that there is an active will blocking access to other forms of information regarding the topic or stemming critical thinking because you recite the pledge.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-04-23 15:29:48
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I'm curious why you and others think indoctrition occurs when violence is indicated and not just by being enforced everyday.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
So are the teachers in on this indoctrination now as well?

Never asked about why we recited it that I can recall. I pretty much treated it like the prayer we said at the start of every day as somewhat of an annoyance we had to get through before class could begin. Never paid it much attention (let me guess I'm indoctrinated because I didn't ask a teacher?)

If you're truly curious I can go ask my mother (6th grade was awful) and see what she says. Don't have any contact with any other teacher still.

Something you had to say every day but you never asked why....you don't find that odd?

Anyways, I asked my colonel in HS. He said something about reaffirming our commitment to our country and honoring those who died for us.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:34:47
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I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-04-23 15:37:06
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.

Why do it every day? Why start it in kindergarten?

Most countries require it for specific occassions: swearing into office, becoming a citizen, etc.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-04-23 15:37:41
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
If saying the Pledge of Allegiance is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing by some), then isn't everything we have ever learned in society also considered indoctrination (or brainwashing)?

Like I said before, it isn't considered indoctrination until you don't like it.
By that very logic, you must be indoctrinating us all with anything we don't like that you have to say, and vice versa.

Even though the literal definition and context of indoctrination was already explained in a previous post.

You can tolerate something, and not like it. Doesn't make it indoctrination.

Being made to go along with something, without rhyme or reason, to instill a teaching or methodology, or ideology, is indoctrination.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-04-23 15:40:36
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The problem with indoctrination happens to be that you don't know if you don't like it or if you do.

It's a teaching or ideology that's been instilled in someone through various means - including heavily unnecessary repetition of phrases or actions to the point that it becomes reactionary and instinct, rather that thought about at a critical level.
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-04-23 15:41:47
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.


It sort of is... But the idea of thorough indoctrination (r u a reaper?) is much more than a simple pledge. Frankly, the education system in America is more of a liberal indoctrination machine. The fact that those of Liberal dispositions dominate the upper echelons of Education (9-All College) never seems to get any attention.

And it's not like Conservatism is incompatible with intellect. (Religion is another matter entirely)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:43:51
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.

Why do it every day? Why start it in kindergarten?

Most countries require it for specific occassions: swearing into office, becoming a citizen, etc.
Why do it everyday and start at such a young age? Cultural reasons really. We have been doing it for so long it has been ingrained into our very fabric of society. If there was ever a slideshow of American values, having children standing up with their right hand over their heart looking up at the American flag would be in there.

Which is the same reason why other countries don't do it every day. Their culture doesn't dictate it except for public purposes, as you have stated.

Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
If saying the Pledge of Allegiance is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing by some), then isn't everything we have ever learned in society also considered indoctrination (or brainwashing)?

Like I said before, it isn't considered indoctrination until you don't like it.
By that very logic, you must be indoctrinating us all with anything we don't like that you have to say, and vice versa.

Even though the literal definition and context of indoctrination was already explained in a previous post.

You can tolerate something, and not like it. Doesn't make it indoctrination.

Being made to go along with something, without rhyme or reason, to instill a teaching or methodology, or ideology, is indoctrination.
You misunderstood.

It has never been an issue until somebody got their panties tied up in a knot and made it an issue. Now we are calling it "brainwashing" and "indoctrination" and whatnot. The Pledge has never hurt anyone, just some people are creating hurt to alter society to fit their needs and wishes.

Besides, there is a reason for the Pledge. It is to show your loyalty to your country. Not to recite with empty words.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:46:08
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Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
It's a teaching or ideology that's been instilled in someone through various means - including heavily unnecessary repetition of phrases or actions to the point that it becomes reactionary and instinct, rather that thought about at a critical level.
Like I said before, if we wait until we actually understand fully what we are saying, most people wouldn't say the Pledge until they are dying.

Face it, humans are morons, with the slight exception of a few with critical thinking skills.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 15:49:15
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm curious why you and others think indoctrition occurs when violence is indicated and not just by being enforced everyday.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
So are the teachers in on this indoctrination now as well?

Never asked about why we recited it that I can recall. I pretty much treated it like the prayer we said at the start of every day as somewhat of an annoyance we had to get through before class could begin. Never paid it much attention (let me guess I'm indoctrinated because I didn't ask a teacher?)

If you're truly curious I can go ask my mother (6th grade was awful) and see what she says. Don't have any contact with any other teacher still.

Something you had to say every day but you never asked why....you don't find that odd?

Anyways, I asked my colonel in HS. He said something about reaffirming our commitment to our country and honoring those who died for us.
Because for indoctrination to exist, by the definition your husband gave (through Wiki), the person is expected not to question or critically examine it. You have provided no evidence that this is the case. If I were to ask the question of why we did it I would not be slapped down and told to just eat it. Someone could explain to me very clearly why we do it. They could also forward me to documentation that explains the process and how it came to be as well as putting me on to documentation of why others feel we shold or should not say it.

It has nothing to do with violence. You wouldn't need violence for indoctrination. It's more or less closing a person off to the outside world and feeding them only one take on something. Making someone believe that this is the only way and taking an active role in shaping the world around them to make them believe that view.

My mom told me to put my dishes away every day and I never asked her why. I never asked why I needed permission from a teacher to just go to the bathroom since I needed to. I said a prayer every day as well in school and they were just things we did.

These things are all easy to reflect upon on your own and you yourself get to make the decision on whether you wish to pursue that line of inquiry. No one is stopping you from thinking about it or critically examining it. Some things I questioned some things I did not.

Sounds pretty terrible huh? Your colonel's response. Did he put you on some list of people to watch out for becuase you didn't just sit there and eat it up and asked a question?

The way someone of you use the term indoctrination could be applied to most anything in anyones lives.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-04-23 15:50:33
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.

Why do it every day? Why start it in kindergarten?

Most countries require it for specific occassions: swearing into office, becoming a citizen, etc.
Why do it everyday and start at such a young age? Cultural reasons really. We have been doing it for so long it has been ingrained into our very fabric of society. If there was ever a slideshow of American values, having children standing up with their right hand over their heart looking up at the American flag would be in there.

Which is the same reason why other countries don't do it every day. Their culture doesn't dictate it except for public purposes, as you have stated.

Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
If saying the Pledge of Allegiance is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing by some), then isn't everything we have ever learned in society also considered indoctrination (or brainwashing)?

Like I said before, it isn't considered indoctrination until you don't like it.
By that very logic, you must be indoctrinating us all with anything we don't like that you have to say, and vice versa.

Even though the literal definition and context of indoctrination was already explained in a previous post.

You can tolerate something, and not like it. Doesn't make it indoctrination.

Being made to go along with something, without rhyme or reason, to instill a teaching or methodology, or ideology, is indoctrination.
You misunderstood.

It has never been an issue until somebody got their panties tied up in a knot and made it an issue. Now we are calling it "brainwashing" and "indoctrination" and whatnot. The Pledge has never hurt anyone, just some people are creating hurt to alter society to fit their needs and wishes.

Besides, there is a reason for the Pledge. It is to show your loyalty to your country. Not to recite with empty words.
You're the one who is misunderstanding. Indoctrination is what it is, whether or not we see it for what it is, before or after someone gets their panties in a wad.

There is a huge gap between cultural values and such, versus outright indoctrination.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 15:51:33
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I just wonder why some people think that pledging allegiance to a country is considered indoctrination (or brainwashing).

Must be the Texan in me.

Why do it every day? Why start it in kindergarten?

Most countries require it for specific occassions: swearing into office, becoming a citizen, etc.
Why do it at all? Why have one? Why do we have a flag? Why should we raise it? Why do we salute certain people?

Why don't you start telling us about the evils of the indoctrination process that is the pledge of allegiance? Convince me that this is some terrible plot to ruin our children. That just in it's very existence it is detrimental at it's core.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-04-23 15:54:08
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WE honestly haven't been doing it all that long... only about what... 70 years?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-04-23 15:54:10
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Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
You're the one who is misunderstanding. Indoctrination is what it is, whether or not we see it for what it is, before or after someone gets their panties in a wad.

There is a huge gap between cultural values and such, versus outright indoctrination.
Then why is it an issue now? Why isn't it an issue when it first started?
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-04-23 15:59:26
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm curious why you and others think indoctrition occurs when violence is indicated and not just by being enforced everyday.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
So are the teachers in on this indoctrination now as well?

Never asked about why we recited it that I can recall. I pretty much treated it like the prayer we said at the start of every day as somewhat of an annoyance we had to get through before class could begin. Never paid it much attention (let me guess I'm indoctrinated because I didn't ask a teacher?)

If you're truly curious I can go ask my mother (6th grade was awful) and see what she says. Don't have any contact with any other teacher still.

Something you had to say every day but you never asked why....you don't find that odd?

Anyways, I asked my colonel in HS. He said something about reaffirming our commitment to our country and honoring those who died for us.
Because for indoctrination to exist, by the definition your husband gave, the person is expected not to question or critically examine it. You have provided no evidence that this is the case. If I were to ask the question of why we did it I would not be slapped down and told to just eat it. Someone could explain to me very clearly why we do it. They could also forward me to documentation that explains the process and how it came to be as well as putting me on to documentation of why others feel we shold or should not say it.

It has nothing to do with violence. You wouldn't need violence for indoctrination. It's more or less closing a person off to the outside world and feeding them only one take on something. Making someone believe that this is the only way and taking an active role in shaping the world around them to make them believe that view.

My mom told me to put my dishes away every day and I never asked her why. I never asked why I needed permission from a teacher to just go to the bathroom since I needed to. I said a prayer every day as well in school and they were just things we did.

These things are all easy to reflect upon on your own and you yourself get to make the decision on whether you wish to pursue that line of inquiry. No one is stopping you from thinking about it or critically examining it. Some things I questioned some things I did not.

Sounds pretty terrible huh? Your colonel's response. Did he put you on some list of people to watch out for becuase you didn't just sit there and eat it up and asked a question?

The way someone of you use the term indoctrination could be applied to most anything in anyones lives.

No, no it couldn't be applied that way.

Even in your own horrible examples, such as not questioning why you need to ask permission to be allowed to use the washroom. There are several reasons that come to mind, even for primary school students - it gives the teacher an idea of where you are, and how long you are expected to be - it's a liability clause.

There have been many instances of teachers simply telling a student "it is what it is, and you're expected to do it" with no more reasoning than that. There have also been instances where, as those very same "educators" are concerned, a student being denied access to information, or punished for inquiring. It's more common than you'd realize, but not nearly as rampant as the fear-mongering portrays.
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By fonewear 2014-04-23 16:00:26
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I didn't know the pledge of allegiance was this serious of an issue. We should create a government agency to investigate further.

Why have an American flag I mean it represents a bunch of former slave owners that wore wigs ?

I think we should replace the American flag with a picture of Steve Jobs. Who needs stars and stripes am I right ?
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-04-23 16:02:07
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
You're the one who is misunderstanding. Indoctrination is what it is, whether or not we see it for what it is, before or after someone gets their panties in a wad.

There is a huge gap between cultural values and such, versus outright indoctrination.
Then why is it an issue now? Why isn't it an issue when it first started?
Why is it an issue now? Because more people are being educated on the issue, that's why.

There have been human rights issues that no one really thought about less than 20, hell, even 10 years ago, or even last year, until it was brought to the discussion table.

And even then, there are people who believe that they still aren't an issue, even with evidence proving otherwise.

Equality is great, and good for all, but don't you dare let anyone be my equal. 'Murica, *** Yeah!
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By fonewear 2014-04-23 16:03:25
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It is an issue because some Atheist is offended. God knows we can't have that happen.

The very act of reading offends me. That is why I stopped reading years ago.
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By Jetackuu 2014-04-23 16:04:15
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Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
You're the one who is misunderstanding. Indoctrination is what it is, whether or not we see it for what it is, before or after someone gets their panties in a wad.

There is a huge gap between cultural values and such, versus outright indoctrination.
Then why is it an issue now? Why isn't it an issue when it first started?
Why is it an issue now? Because more people are being educated on the issue, that's why.

There have been human rights issues that no one really thought about less than 20, hell, even 10 years ago, or even last year, until it was brought to the discussion table.

And even then, there are people who believe that they still aren't an issue, even with evidence proving otherwise.

Equality is great, and good for all, but don't you dare let anyone be my equal. 'Murica, *** Yeah!
kind of like the issue of corporal punishment for children, that will pretty much get you railroaded if you bring up...

(inb4 railroading).
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2014-04-23 16:04:26
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Yeah, so, I know the word 'indoctrination' is pretty scary, but I don't suppose we can stop acting like reactionary children for a moment.

When we have kids and we want our kids to have certain values, we indoctrinate them with those values. That's really there is to it.

So yes, it's all indoctrination, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's inherently evil. It's just that the word almost always gets used only to explain why someone could believe bizarre things; the Westboro Bapist Church comes to mind.
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By Jetackuu 2014-04-23 16:05:32
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Yeah, so, I know the word 'indoctrination' is pretty scary, but I don't suppose we can stop acting like reactionary children for a moment.

When we have kids and we want our kids to have certain values, we indoctrinate them with those values. That's really there is to it.

So yes, it's all indoctrination, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's inherently evil. It's just that the word almost always gets used only to explain why someone could believe bizarre things; the Westboro Bapist Church comes to mind.
There's a difference between indoctrinating and teaching, and there's ways to properly do both.
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