Russia was just protecting its military assets.
This whole thing started because Yanukovych was a schmuck who stole money from the Ukrainian people and the Kremlin. Further more he never bothered to do the figures right for joining the EU. He made all these crazy promises, for money probably, and when it came down to finalize the numbers, they simply could not do it.
Inevitably when you make a lot of wild promises and get people's hopes up and then at the last minute say it's not going happen, people will get pissed. Then all their grievances over the past few years will come up as well.
The only reason Putin is protecting Yanukovych right now is to get his money back. After everything is settled, I wouldn't doubt it if they tossed him in prison for the rest of his life. But they want to get back what he stole first.
Russia And Ukraine
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Russia and Ukraine
Shiva.Viciousss said: » I do agree that McCain, Graham and the rest of the warmongering republicans are idiots and have no idea what they are saying in regards to any foreign policy matter, but the fact is they have not been relevant in a while, Obama just ignores them, as does the rest of America. The Crimean ports were never in danger, and there has never been proof that they were. The Russians were paying the Ukrainians to use them, a new govt wasn't going to change that arrangement. The only thing that would really put them in danger is if the Turks got pissed and closed the strait, which would make this economically disastrous land grab even more pointless.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Russia was just protecting its military assets. This whole thing started because Yanukovych was a schmuck who stole money from the Ukrainian people and the Kremlin. Further more he never bothered to do the figures right for joining the EU. He made all these crazy promises, for money probably, and when it came down to finalize the numbers, they simply could not do it. Inevitably when you make a lot of wild promises and get people's hopes up and then at the last minute say it's not going happen, people will get pissed. Then all their grievances over the past few years will come up as well. The only reason Putin is protecting Yanukovych right now is to get his money back. After everything is settled, I wouldn't doubt it if they tossed him in prison for the rest of his life. But they want to get back what he stole first. What exactly could 25,000 soldiers not do to protect the military base from INSIDE it, that required sending in thousands of covert units to ATTACK Ukrainian assets?
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Shiva.Viciousss said: » A new govt wasn't going to change that arrangement. I wish people would get this fired up over Israel and Palestine. Talk about illegal land grabs that have sparked violence for decades.
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Shiva.Viciousss said: » A new govt wasn't going to change that arrangement. Being opposed to something doesn't even come close to breaking a treaty that would basically grant Russia permission to invade. Instead, they let Russia break the treaty. Shiva.Viciousss said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Shiva.Viciousss said: » A new govt wasn't going to change that arrangement. Being opposed to something doesn't even come close to breaking a treaty that would basically grant Russia permission to invade. Instead, they let Russia break the treaty. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Shiva.Viciousss said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Shiva.Viciousss said: » A new govt wasn't going to change that arrangement. Being opposed to something doesn't even come close to breaking a treaty that would basically grant Russia permission to invade. Instead, they let Russia break the treaty. The one that subsidized Russian oil/gas in exchange for access to the Black Sea. Name of the treaty please?
Their were quite a few signed agreements between the two countries, all of which Russia tore up with their invasion.
The old 1975 CSCE Budapest Memorandum which is less of a treaty moreso than a signed agreement 1997 Treaty of Friendship - yep that one is dead And then the Black Sea Agreements in '97 that detailed the handling of the Black Sea Fleet and ports going forward, which they just renewed in 2010. Also dead. The Ukraine was never going to break any of those. You disappoint. I thought you would have named the actual treaty, called the 2010 Kharkiv Pact, aka The Russian Ukrainian Naval Base for Gas treaty.
Quote: Taras Kuzio criticized the treaty, stating that it was railroaded through parliament without parliamentary or public discussion and after ignoring votes against it in three important committees (two of which had negative majorities). He argued that the treaty violates the constitution, which bans permanent military bases, and that it was not discussed prior to a vote in the National Security and Defense Council as the constitution requires. He said that the treaty is illegitimate because it rests on only 220 deputies from three factions; Kuzio argued that the remaining twenty-five deputies had been blackmailed, bribed or coerced to defect from the opposition. He added that Ukrainian public support was "gained by a lie" that the deal would bring cheaper Russian gas; while in fact, a new July 2010 agreement with the IMF mandated Ukraine to increase utility prices by a staggering fifty percent on August 1, 2010, and another fifty percent in April 2011 Wow, a political document that made it through with the support of only a handful of people and peddled to the public under false pretenses... I guess we can all stop buying health insurance, since we don't have to follow laws we don't like.
I said they renewed it. Good enough. Nothing justifies Russia's invasion, the Ukraine wasn't going to cut off Russia's access to Crimea, ever.
Odin.Jassik said: » Wow, a political document that made it through with the support of only a handful of people and peddled to the public under false pretenses... I guess we can all stop buying health insurance, since we don't have to follow laws we don't like. Many people are doing just that. Shiva.Viciousss said: » I said they renewed it. Good enough. Nothing justifies Russia's invasion, the Ukraine wasn't going to cut off Russia's access to Crimea, ever. Lots of things? Like, the inability to accomplish the feat? Russia already had forces in Crimea, not 25,000, but enough to deter any kind of aggressiveness. Case in point, the Ukrainians just rolled over during the hostile takeover.
Also, why would they? Russia was PAYING them to use the ports, why mess up a reliable source of income when your economy is bad? No reason. It wasn't going to happen. It wasn't even a possibility. (Congrats btw on getting the terrible economy of Crimea that you are now responsible for, Putin.) Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Wow, a political document that made it through with the support of only a handful of people and peddled to the public under false pretenses... I guess we can all stop buying health insurance, since we don't have to follow laws we don't like. Many people are doing just that. And it's up to the people of Ukraine to do that, not the president of russia. Crimea is over 60% Russian anyway.
And the terrible economy means changing all the McDonald's to Burger kings now. Quite frankly Burger king has really upped it's game lately. Under the Russian Federation, Crimea is now entitled to massive amounts of tax breaks and other financial support the IMF has failed to provide. They're better off and very happy about it. Hence the celebration and fireworks there. They all seemed very happy and hopeful about the future. Can't say the same for Ukraine atm. Odin.Jassik said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Wow, a political document that made it through with the support of only a handful of people and peddled to the public under false pretenses... I guess we can all stop buying health insurance, since we don't have to follow laws we don't like. Many people are doing just that. And it's up to the people of Ukraine to do that, not the president of russia. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Crimea is over 60% Russian anyway. And the terrible economy means changing all the McDonald's to Burger kings now. Quite frankly Burger king has really upped it's game lately. Under the Russian Federation, Crimea is now entitled to massive amounts of tax breaks and other financial support the IMF has failed to provide. They're better off and very happy about it. Hence the celebration and fireworks there. They all seemed very happy and hopeful about the future. Can't say the same for Ukraine atm. None of that makes it legit. And Russia is having to go overbudget to provide for Crimea, so, have fun with that. Don't worry they're having a ball with it.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Crimea is over 60% Russian anyway. And the terrible economy means changing all the McDonald's to Burger kings now. Quite frankly Burger king has really upped it's game lately. Under the Russian Federation, Crimea is now entitled to massive amounts of tax breaks and other financial support the IMF has failed to provide. They're better off and very happy about it. Hence the celebration and fireworks there. They all seemed very happy and hopeful about the future. Can't say the same for Ukraine atm. Let's be clear, I was born in the US, my parents were born in Romania and Italy, that means I'm American with Romanian and Italian ancestry, it doesn't mean that my grandkids will be Italian or Romanian. Those 60% Russians have been living in Ukraine for going on 3 generations, if they wanted to live in Russia, they could have moved to Russia. They don't have the right to secede and Russia didn't have the right to annex that territory. It would be akin to Arizona being annexed by Mexico because some arbitrary % of the population was of Mexican descent and didn't like ACA. It's a PATHETIC justification for breaking treaties, invading a sovereign nation, and killing hundreds of people. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Wow, a political document that made it through with the support of only a handful of people and peddled to the public under false pretenses... I guess we can all stop buying health insurance, since we don't have to follow laws we don't like. Many people are doing just that. And it's up to the people of Ukraine to do that, not the president of russia. please please please link some kind of evidence that the US or EU have thousands of troops on the ground in Ukraine seizing government buildings...
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I think the number of deaths from Crimea to Self declared territories in east Ukraine total like 6 maybe. I know it is less than 10.
Not hundreds. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » I think the number of deaths from Crimea to Self declared territories in east Ukraine total like 6 maybe. I know it is less than 10. Not hundreds. Hundreds have died between the riots in Kiev that were spurred on by Putin's ultimatums to Yanakovich to reject the EU trade agreement and the storming of buildings and military bases all over Eastern Ukraine. The "less than 10" is the deaths in Crimea since Russia officially occupied it. Russian peacekeeping troops did not seize any buildings in Crimea. They were merely there to assure a safe referendum took place.
There are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. The troops made no apparent attempt to interfere with the running of the airport or take over key infrastructure, contenting themselves with strolling up and down the car park at a leisurely place, apparently deliberately for the benefit of television cameras. Ukraine Crisis: NATO Boosts Military Presence in Eastern Europe In a Pentagon briefing Thursday, Rear Adm. John Kirby said the United States has seen "no specific indications" that Russian troops are in fact conducting military exercises along the border with Ukraine. Odin.Jassik said: » the riots in Kiev that were spurred on by Putin's ultimatums to Yanakovich to reject the EU trade agreement EDIT: fixed the clarification part. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Russian peacekeeping troops did not seize any buildings in Crimea. They were merely there to assure a safe referendum took place. There are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. The troops made no apparent attempt to interfere with the running of the airport or take over key infrastructure, contenting themselves with strolling up and down the car park at a leisurely place, apparently deliberately for the benefit of television cameras. Ukraine Crisis: NATO Boosts Military Presence in Eastern Europe In a Pentagon briefing Thursday, Rear Adm. John Kirby said the United States has seen "no specific indications" that Russian troops are in fact conducting military exercises along the border with Ukraine. What are these links supposed to be saying? Shiva.Viciousss said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Russian peacekeeping troops did not seize any buildings in Crimea. They were merely there to assure a safe referendum took place. There are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. The troops made no apparent attempt to interfere with the running of the airport or take over key infrastructure, contenting themselves with strolling up and down the car park at a leisurely place, apparently deliberately for the benefit of television cameras. Ukraine Crisis: NATO Boosts Military Presence in Eastern Europe In a Pentagon briefing Thursday, Rear Adm. John Kirby said the United States has seen "no specific indications" that Russian troops are in fact conducting military exercises along the border with Ukraine. What are these links supposed to be saying? No, they are definitely not saying that, and no, I am not buying into anything. If Putin wants to de-escalate the situation, he can withdraw his troops from Crimea, anything else and he is the guiltiest party when it comes to war/fear mongering.
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