Job Balance?

Having a Stymie'd debuff receive the full effect of Saboteur would be nice.

This is not something I know about. How do Stymie and Saboteur interact?

Id also like Saboteur to stack with dias3 def down alrdy. Also a magic def - debuff plz

They interact normally, but Saboteur is nerfed on NMs.

Tired of seeing OP drk and war melting everything down, SE need to buff SAM, BLU, BST, THF(Pre rudra nerf),

I don't think THF needs any buffs in damage, but I have only seen MS WAR destroy me in the meters (as they should) and haven't had issue with DRK or WAR beating me.

Well I have to disagree with thf not needing buffs. Dnc shames thf in every regard in terms of dmg. The fact a dnc can do a 60-75k rudra's raw compared to a thf who can't even get anywhere close without having to SA/TA is pretty sad. We have better dagger skill, higher crit dmg bonus and SATA does give us a huge dmg boost to weapon skills and we still fail.

There is absolutely no way a DNC is pulling out a 60-75k Rudra's without a flourish move.

Edit: To expand on that-

DNC was buffed a while back to give one of their flourish 3's (a 90s cooldown I think) the ability to give a forced critical to mainhand attacks. Before this their Empyrean head also gave this flourish a DMG+25% mod. So during this Flourish effect a DNC can out-Rudra's a THF. But it requires full finishing moves to pull off and some solid timing to work for a good multi-step, it's also a much longer cooldown than SA and TA. Compared to THF it's really going to depend on the fight. If you're working a short fight where you need epic burst damage a Terp DNC is likely going to beat out THF. If it's a little longer THF will catch up. If you need more accuracy a DNC will have an advantage, but THF has a fusion WS and thus can skillchain with every element in the entire game. Also DNC never has a "cannot miss" scenario. I can land SA+Rudra's through a Flash move assuming positioning is correct. I consider the jobs to be fairly balanced, with each having some advantages over the other.

I dunno about that Lady. You raise up some very good points, but then again you forget to point out how easy it is for DNCs to generate finishing moves (especially if they have Terpsi), how Climactic Flourish can last for at least 2 WSs if you're smart and fastm, how you can gain Finishing Moves even with the JA No Foot Rise and so on.

All in all I dunno, THF is more straightforward as a job but has positioning requirements, DNC in my personal opinion is more complicated and requires more complex rotations and stuff to pull out its full potential but in theory can provide much higher damage than THF.

I think that's one of those things which are hard to balance because they're potentially too strong, so SE nerf it by making it hard to stick or with less potency on NMs.

I think a good way to buff Sabo, instead of furtherly raising its potency (which is hard to handle already), would be to reduce the cooldown so you can use it more often.
Or to give it some other special bonus, like making Sabo debuff undispellable by the target who receives it.

Even if Climactic is lasting for two WS that's 2 stacked WS in 90s whereas a THF has 2 stacked WS every 55~s. No Foot Rise is a 3min cooldown, there's not much mid-battle that's going to heavily influence overall damage between two jobs. That'd be like saying a well-timed Despoil gives THF a major advantage. Sure, it's theoretically true, but it actually being a difference maker is highly unlikely.

I disagree with DNC pulling out "much higher damage". Some fights THF will win, some DNC will win. Party config, ideal SC, weapon options, etc. are going to be the major factors in which job is better for given content, and that means they're fairly close in my opinion.

I dunno. DNC just seems to pull ahead in all respects and more. Higher dmg potential and the ability to do amazing cures, debuffs plus self skillchain efficiently just puts it over in every regard compared to a thf. All thf has is some hate control and with how the enmity changes have been, there really isn't any huge benefit for a thf to TA a tank other than just damage as a tank should have no problem holding hate on most mobs (unless they are a bad tank).

I consider a dnc way more a support job than thf is any day of the week as our support buffs are crap compared to a dnc. The only real viable ones we have are Feint and maybe Collaborator/Accomplice (I rarely use it though in end game as a hate issue is usually never present with a good group). Everything else is pretty mediocre.

I don't think the difference between theoretical THF and DNC damage is that high in the end. My "much higher damage" was a bit out of place, it's an exxageration.

As small as it may be, I still think there is a difference though, and that it's in favour of DNC.

Yes, DNC is a better support than THF. That's the design of the job. That's not even an argument. I don't know why that's a factor.

Both are excellent DDs and are extremely close. Just about nothing can compete with the spike damage of a DNC's double climactic Rudra's, but THF is going to have superior damage as the fight goes on, generally.

Agreed. DNC has lots more support options, but they also sacrifice for it. The more support a DNC provides, the less damage they provide, it has that system on lock and very balanced (which is part of why I have more of an issue with BLU which sacrifices less to do its support).

In a really short fight, DNC will win, in a fight under 2min it'll be closer as DNC might not be able to pull off two climactics but THF will pull off a combined 4 SA's and TA's. Add on THF having superior weapon skill options (SC damage seems to be ignored by a lot of players still) and being able to create really long multi-step SC's and it's truly situational which is superior.

No one has mentioned it yet so I will, THF has 19% Triple Attack from traits and gifts, DNC gets 10-20% Double Attack, so THF has a clear edge in that department.

I should of provided my statement with another fact that SE considers THF to be a support job and not a DD. But at the same time they called Ninja a DD job and it turned into a tank from the players so probably not a relevant point. I believe thf to be a DD unlike dancer but that's just personal opinion.

Eh, it's really more of a community perception. I have little doubt in my mind my THF can mostly keep up with almost anyone on WoC/T4's if I had the chance. There are allowed to be differences in job powers and advantages. It just cannot be "all the time" and by a huge margin and I don't think DNC > THF by any huge margin.

I honestly don't expect to be all the time good but same time I want to be an option and not be treated as an afterthought. I'm a DD job and I can be as good as say a samurai or dark knight but common perception from most players is "use the best jobs/meta or gtfo".

I can understand the argument from both sides. The meta style vs the follow your heart style.

I have always been on the side of the follow your heart style for one very good reason. You pay for your monthly subscription to play this epic game how you want too. My message to those who simply love the follow your heart style is this. It is a more enjoyable experience with this game if you play with open minded player's never stop working with them.

"follow your heart" should be viable. Meta is always going to be meta and focused on the absolute best/quickest way to do stuff, that's made to be exclusive and there's no changing that. But you should be able to do most content on the job of your choice. All signs point to mostly being able to do that, though. Assuming you don't have the heart of a MNK.

I'm torn in between as far as Lordgrim's statement is concerned.
Personally I've always been leaning more for the "follow your heart approach", instinctively, for the very reason Lordgrim stated (you pay a monthly fee, it's not a job) and many others.

At the same time though we have to draw a line somewhere because nobody wants to wipe on the same monster for 1 month in a row.

Likewise, you don't want to spend 2 hours doing something you can do in 5 mins, most of the time.


So yeah, I dunno where to position myself. I do love to follow my heart but I kinda have to draw lines somewhere.
It's easy to draw them when the differences are so extreme like in my silly examples, but when they're not as big it becomes much harder honestly.

Dancer is better because it has Chocobo Jig. How is this even up for debate?

23% Innate Skillchain bonus gives DNC a huge advantage. Unfortunately DNCs 550 gift is a disguised nerf when in haste capped situations.

The first clear on WoC I was 44% of the damage on THF. Not saying that to shame any other DD or anything, but I was a similar number on another melee clear of it so it's not some coincidence. There was about 4 DD so being that big a portion of the damage on THF, there's no reason not to bring a THF. I find that except in very niche instances (like extremely short fights or something like tenzen where the ability to WS is taken away from you for long periods of time), it's harder for THF to pull ahead. You can match spike damage a lot better if you stack SA and TA with vajra for a 60% bonus but it will hurt overall dps like it does for DNC. I have my own views on DNC, I think SE overloads hybrid jobs kits and I think the community over values DPS most the time but agree they don't need balance changes at this time.


This isn't true. DNC, BLU and pretty much any DD's but THF and RNG will pull hate when they go all out. THF can do its damage while a real tank is tanking and that maximizes both offensive and defensive potential. There's a reason when I did a combined 2 ls/shout group in the early morning when Hidhaegg came out, that at the end of the fight I was the only DD alive and kicking and that without that we wouldn't have won.


It would be a factor if damage was equal but DNC got more support options. Even if you pay for them with TP options other jobs don't have is job power.

Forget BLU vs others, let's talk about DNC vs THF!

In all seriousness, I think both jobs have different advantages. DPS wise they both do well. I don't believe this DNC god status, where's the validation? For WoC/Kouryu/Teles it's hard to argue DNC over THF. Larceny brings a lot to those fights.

Forget all of that!

I want to see an 18-man SMN alliance for Tulmult Curator!

(I'm being serious)

In all actuality, I do plan on checking SMN's viability for things like Master Trials and such. I already know SMN can be effectively used for Kirin but I don't think I've seen a SMN WoC as of yet.

But to respond to your post, I'm developing my DNC as we speak. I don't really plan on doing extensive testing until I finish my job points. I'm also working on Terpsichore on the side but it will be a while before that's not only finished but afterglowed as well.

Precisely. Some fights DNC is going to have an advantage, in some a THF will. And both can contribute acceptable DPS numbers to complete the top content. That's as good as they need to be. I'm more interested in finding a way to stamp out the absurd BLU ONRY bandwagon and get some of the truly lesser used DD's into things.

There always has been and there always will be bandwagon jobs. If someone isn't getting invites to the content they need or are interested in, then they need to make their own party/alliance and lead the event themselves.

It's really that simple.

This actually hits on a thought I have frequently about what we truly seek when we clamour for job balance. Personally, I'm fine with multiple events that each are suited for certain setups versus a scenario where all jobs are equally suited for all events. In a game where one of the hallmarks is the ability to level multiple jobs, there's nothing wrong worth having certain events in game that cater to certain jobs, as long as it is balanced out with other events geared towards other setups.

I did Ambuscade with Two MNKs last night, they both performed very well. One MNK was in mostly starter gear while the other had an AG Sphairai. The fights went by relatively quick and I got to stare at the pretty Sphairai all night.

The damage didn't seem to far off to what I was seeing with BLUs. the MNK was doing around 12-15k VS with 11 Rolls and BoG Frailty Fury. I think I had an almace BLU doing around 15-30k CDCs the other day. WS Frequency seemed to be the same.


Regardless the job is definitely strong enough for ambuscade VD, so any scrub who ignores invite requests from MNKs should probably uninstall.